British student to be extradited to US over piracy charge

[rossmum]

Here's an article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9013961/Piracy-student-Richard-ODwyer-loses-extradition-case-over-TVShack-website.html

And, because this wouldn't be a debate thread without it, here's my take!

This is fucking disgusting. At what point did it become the done thing for countries to just give up their sovereignity whenever it suits the Americans and let the US Gov't, acting in interest of privately-owned corporate entities which have shit fucking all to do with the improvement or security or any other important aspect of the United States, pluck their citizens away and stick them in US prisons? Why are the other western nations allowing this to happen instead of telling the US to go fuck off like they should? This isn't a murder charge, this isn't a kidnapping charge, this isn't even a fucking assault charge; a dude is being sent to a US federal prison (which, as we all know, are wonderlands of basic human rights violations at the best of times) because a site he runs, and made advertising revenue from, contained links to pirated stuff. Instead of the UK handling its own shit, they are bending right over and letting the US have their way with a British citizen who did all this (I honestly hesitate to even call it a fucking crime) on British soil.

This right here is why the US should not be allowed any sort of power at all, let alone the kind of power it does hold. Not only is it probably one of the most hypocritical nations going, and a horrendous violator of human rights, but it also now considers it acceptable to snatch up citizens from countries unfortunate enough to be its close allies for petty bullshit that is really none of its fucking business in the first place. While the court system did make the decision I would not be a bit surprised if they were pressured, or else I can't really see them doing something as unpopular.

For the record, no I don't hate America. It's stupid to hate a whole country just because of the actions of an irresponsible minority. Imagine the UK or Canada or France or wherever decides hey fuck it, let's snatch up Americans for running sites which have links to pirated content. That shit wouldn't fly there, why let it here? Write your local rep a Very Angry Letter about how wrong this is. British members should probably do the same. There's a pretty fucking thick line between being allies and being someone's bitch. Let's hope the high court reminds everyone where that line is and overturns this.

[=sw=warlord]

the act was not performed over US soil so why the fuck is it being trialed there?

[rossmum]

the act was not performed over US soil so why the fuck is it being trialed there?
Because the RIAA and MPAA and fuck knows what other corporations basically own a large enough 'share' in the US Government to have said body act directly in their own interests rather than those of the country it is supposed to be busy running.

[TVTyrant]

Because the RIAA and MPAA and fuck knows what other corporations basically own a large enough 'share' in the US Government to have said body act directly in their own interests rather than those of the country it is supposed to be busy running.
Sounds more like a problem with the UK than the US. All of the things that they do, including things like this where they extradite citizens, are their own damn choice. I am just as offended about the attitude that the governments of the western world have taken to the internet as anyone else. But making this into an anti-America thing is just silly. How about other countries have some accountability for once for their own actions.

[rossmum]

The UK is to blame for not telling the US to fuck off, which they right should have, but the US is also out of control if they honestly think this is in any way acceptable.

On second thoughts, they probably don't. I doubt they care. The US breaks international law like it's cool and then turns around and yells at everyone else for doing it. They are abusing their power plain and simple, and while the UK technically could have said no, I'm pretty sure we all know how well the US handles being turned down. Spain sure does.

[Kornman00]

The US breaks international law like it's cool and then turns around and yells at everyone else for doing it.
u rossmad :trollface:?

But yeah, it is pretty bullshit that the UK judge gave the okay to extradition. But then again, his crimes aren't bullshit.

[TVTyrant]

The UK is to blame for not telling the US to fuck off, which they right should have, but the US is also out of control if they honestly think this is in any way acceptable.

On second thoughts, they probably don't. I doubt they care. The US breaks international law like it's cool and then turns around and yells at everyone else for doing it. They are abusing their power plain and simple, and while the UK technically could have said no, I'm pretty sure we all know how well the US handles being turned down. Spain sure does.
Somebody has to be on top. See the UK circa 1919.

[Kornman00]

Ron Paul, 2012!

China, 2019!

[TVTyrant]

Ron Paul, 2012!

China, 2019!
George Washington's corpse, 2012!

[Pooky]

petty bullshit

It's not just a copy, it's a crime.

http://i.imgur.com/8yfHy.gif

[rossmum]

Let me tell you about the nights of sleep I lose worrying about how the actions of pirates (I am not one because I am too much of a goody-goody!) are depriving record label bosses of their 5th swimming pool.

[TVTyrant]

Let me tell you about the nights of sleep I lose worrying about how the actions of pirates (I am not one because I am too much of a goody-goody!) are depriving record label bosses of their 5th swimming pool.
ROFL. Good one :iamafag:

[neuro]

what i don't get, is how people responsible for crap like this aren't assasinated yet.

[nuttyyayap]

Because of the mentally deficient degenerates who support something as long as it has "fighting crime" thrown in there somewhere.

[DarkHalo003]

Let me tell you about the nights of sleep I lose worrying about how the actions of pirates (I am not one because I am too much of a goody-goody!) are depriving record label bosses of their 5th swimming pool.
Valid point.

[Warsaw]

what i don't get, is how people responsible for crap like this aren't assasinated yet.

Because it's the people who are against shit like this that are getting assassinated. :tinfoil:

[=sw=warlord]

what i don't get, is how people responsible for crap like this aren't assasinated yet.
Because anyone who fights for their freedom is in league with terrorists and are funding crime and poverty.
see: OWS.



Ron Paul, 2012!

China, 2019!
North Korea, 2020!

The Ceph are coming!
Do you think this is a war ordinary humans can win?

[DarkHalo003]

UNSC 2021! :iamafag:

[rossmum]

what i don't get, is how people responsible for crap like this aren't assasinated yet.
because violence is bad, killing is bad, peaceful resolution is always the best outcome. unfortunately it's also the rarest.


Because of the mentally deficient degenerates who support something as long as it has "fighting crime" thrown in there somewhere.
...but also because of this. reminder: old people in az still think sheriff joe arpaio is anything other than a horrible person who willingly violates international humanitarian law like it's no damn thing. the far right still thinks russia is communism and communism is evil. the far left, for the most part anyway, still think shooters are all insane right wing neo-nazis who want to kill the president. people are ignorant and set in their ways and this is only worsened by the echo chamber effect. while i'm here, everyone please go make a friend with someone who doesn't share your worldview. i'm not saying go buddy up with someone who wants to name their firstborn Adolf Final Solution Hitler-Jones or whatever but just find someone you will argue with a lot and be their friend. the world would be a lot less fucking stupid if people don't only make friends with the kinds of people who will parrot their opinions and make them even more set in stone (hence the recent inflammatory posting also).

back to the topic at hand, i was pretty fucking mad when i posted this. piracy is still kinda bad, because if you break one law then you're kind of crossing a line there already, but we all know that most of the profit from movie/tv/music either goes to the label or to the big stars, it's pretty bad. not a victimless crime but i would rank it as probably one of the least serious possible, well below stealing a loaf of bread from the corner store because the corner store is not stinking rich. still he should not have done it but the sentence alone is out of all proportion to the crime, the deportation is just wildly over the top, fuck corporations and fuck the us and british governments both for not telling the relevant ones to fuck off. government should not be doing this, if someone feels their copyright has been infringed then they should take it up in the civil courts and the courts should rule in favour of whoever is right, not whoever has the biggest wallet. write angry letters about this. governments need to stop doing it and start actually fixing real problems, like oh i dunno, corporate involvement in political campaigns and lawmaking​.

[dark navi]

At what point will people from our generation start to get into politics and stop this bullshit? Probably never. :smith:

Also, I still agree with Alexis Ohanian (http://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-co-founder-alexis-ohanian-on-sopa-its-going-to-break-the-internet-2012-1) on the fact that a lot of piracy is a service industry issue.

[Zeph]

the act was not performed over US soil so why the fuck is it being trialed there?

Are you suggesting hackers can target a bank overseas and cause damage without recourse simply because they're not within the borders of the targeted country? The argument goes that although you are not physically in the country, your actions are. It's a unique case in that it's called theft, but it's simply telecommunications. It'll set precedent on if training (or simply telling people about something) can be considered a crime. The extradition was based on the idea that this guy coordinated crimes in the United States. The actual trial was probably based on the idea that SOPA and PIPA would pass, because if he's tried under US law, he'd be protected by the DMCA Act. If this guy was in any other country, it wouldn't have flown.

[Zeph]

At what point will people from our generation start to get into politics and stop this bullshit? Probably never. :smith:

Also, I still agree with Alexis Ohanian (http://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-co-founder-alexis-ohanian-on-sopa-its-going-to-break-the-internet-2012-1) on the fact that a lot of piracy is a service industry issue.

Sorry, I'm busy with things like school and work. You see, I have these things called bills I have to regularly pay because I do not actually own the property I live on and pay annual taxes for. It requires time that would be interrupted should I, say, go yelling what I want in various streets and live in a park at night.

[rossmum]

There are ways of changing things that do not involve living in a park at night and yelling things.

I will say though, yelling things is pretty much always useful.

[TVTyrant]

because violence is bad, killing is bad, peaceful resolution is always the best outcome. unfortunately it's also the rarest.


...but also because of this. reminder: old people in az still think sheriff joe arpaio is anything other than a horrible person who willingly violates international humanitarian law like it's no damn thing. the far right still thinks russia is communism and communism is evil. the far left, for the most part anyway, still think shooters are all insane right wing neo-nazis who want to kill the president. people are ignorant and set in their ways and this is only worsened by the echo chamber effect. while i'm here, everyone please go make a friend with someone who doesn't share your worldview. i'm not saying go buddy up with someone who wants to name their firstborn Adolf Final Solution Hitler-Jones or whatever but just find someone you will argue with a lot and be their friend. the world would be a lot less fucking stupid if people don't only make friends with the kinds of people who will parrot their opinions and make them even more set in stone (hence the recent inflammatory posting also).

back to the topic at hand, i was pretty fucking mad when i posted this. piracy is still kinda bad, because if you break one law then you're kind of crossing a line there already, but we all know that most of the profit from movie/tv/music either goes to the label or to the big stars, it's pretty bad. not a victimless crime but i would rank it as probably one of the least serious possible, well below stealing a loaf of bread from the corner store because the corner store is not stinking rich. still he should not have done it but the sentence alone is out of all proportion to the crime, the deportation is just wildly over the top, fuck corporations and fuck the us and british governments both for not telling the relevant ones to fuck off. government should not be doing this, if someone feels their copyright has been infringed then they should take it up in the civil courts and the courts should rule in favour of whoever is right, not whoever has the biggest wallet. write angry letters about this. governments need to stop doing it and start actually fixing real problems, like oh i dunno, corporate involvement in political campaigns and lawmaking​.
Yeah, corporations suck. Not much we can do about it but OCCUPY!!!

On a more serious note, is Occupy over or what? Hasn't been in the news for a month or so.

[=sw=warlord]

:words:
Are you suggesting that instead of charging suspect in the place they committed the crime in that they should be extradited purely because they're being requested to?
Seriously, if we're going to bother with knowing the laws in every country let's just make one unified state and get it over with.
The idea for extraditing people is to charge them on the soil they committed the crime in, not because it's convenient to the prosecutors who could ask for sentences not used in the countries where the crime was done.

Here's a good example, Execution is a practice not performed over here but is done in several US states.
Another example is on some countries making an physical representation of Mohammed can have you executed as well.
If I were to stick a turban and label on a teddy bear saying "Mohammed" should I be extradited to some random Islamist country because I Offended them and although no crime was committed where I live, it was there and for that I could be executed for something which in the place done is not a crime and yet punished for none the less on a soil I've never been to.

The reason extradition exists is if I committed a crime on foreign soil I could be sent back to said place to stand trial for the laws i broke in that place.

[Sanctus]

tl;dr
so here's my two cents

ALZZx1xmAzg

[Warsaw]

Extradition should only work if you were physically present in said nation when you committed a crime, otherwise it opens a terribly complicated can of worms.

It's like CA trying to extradite Geohotz. Even though he was in NJ, they claim he affected CA businesses and customers. That's pretty bullshit right there, and that type of thinking is the reason why I absolutely hate CA. USA to the world is like CA to the USA: acting all pretentious without having any good reasons to be so.

[Zeph]

Are you suggesting that instead of charging suspect in the place they committed the crime in that they should be extradited purely because they're being requested to?
Seriously, if we're going to bother with knowing the laws in every country let's just make one unified state and get it over with.
The idea for extraditing people is to charge them on the soil they committed the crime in, not because it's convenient to the prosecutors who could ask for sentences not used in the countries where the crime was done.

Here's a good example, Execution is a practice not performed over here but is done in several US states.
Another example is on some countries making an physical representation of Mohammed can have you executed as well.
If I were to stick a turban and label on a teddy bear saying "Mohammed" should I be extradited to some random Islamist country because I Offended them and although no crime was committed where I live, it was there and for that I could be executed for something which in the place done is not a crime and yet punished for none the less on a soil I've never been to.

The reason extradition exists is if I committed a crime on foreign soil I could be sent back to said place to stand trial for the laws i broke in that place.

You don't seem to quite understand the various legal systems in addition to international law. Case in point, you draw a picture of "Mohammed" sucking a dick in the US (perfectly legal), you're violating religious law. Yes, it violates the law of some countries as well, but that's because a country's legal system is inherently created by what its own inhabitants believe. The country may hate you, but it wouldn't be the country that sets your house on fire and stones you to death after hundreds of lashings; it'd be the religious believers who the country's legal system praises but doesn't order.

While not all countries have amicable international agreements, some do and they're almost always based on the financial system. As far as the American and British courts are concerned, there's the possibility of theft/distribution of intellectual property. The two countries have trade agreements setting precedence for what should happen if someone in country B screws around with something in country A since company A in country A has licensing agreements for distribution in country B.

[Zeph]

Extradition should only work if you were physically present in said nation when you committed a crime, otherwise it opens a terribly complicated can of worms.

It's like CA trying to extradite Geohotz. Even though he was in NJ, they claim he affected CA businesses and customers. That's pretty bullshit right there, and that type of thinking is the reason why I absolutely hate CA. USA to the world is like CA to the USA: acting all pretentious without having any good reasons to be so.
It's in the EULA of any agreement that you are bound to law of a state where the company conducts bussiness. While this is often its HQ, it's common for many bussiness to rent a room in a building located in a state with laws they like. I can't remember where it is (I want to think New Jersey), but there's an old woman who makes a couple million dollars a year leasing small mailboxes inside her home that companies can list as a legal address. She has a non-disclosure about who owns what, so it's very much a cloak and daggers affair.

[=sw=warlord]

EULA's will hardly fly in the face of law as a waiver.
That's kind of like a pilot for a helicopter getting someone to sign a waiver that they'll be accountable if they get any kind of injury during the trip and then get pushed out the side.

[Pooky]

Let me tell you about the nights of sleep I lose worrying about how the actions of pirates (I am not one because I am too much of a goody-goody!) are depriving record label bosses of their 5th swimming pool.

You can tell my post was serious business because of MC double def DP.

[Warsaw]

Geohotz didn't agree to any EULA with the PS3, which is why he had no PSN account. There really were no grounds for them to try him under CA law just because people in CA downloaded his hack (which was actually more of a discovery of something Sony put in that he made while hacking his bought-and-payed-for hardware), which is what they were trying to do. And even if there is some tiny law that says they can, that doesn't make it any less bullshit.

It really is a whole big complicated can of worms.

[Limited]

Will people stop just throwing their ideas out there and actually look into the case?

Firstly, the UK did initially say no to extradition - US prosecutors put tremendous pressure on the UK to comply with the request. Yes I am angry we caved to the US - the treaty favours the US.

The US authorities argue that the website was hosted in the US and the majority of activity was from US citizens, meaning most of the crimes committed were from the US. This is a piss poor reason and they would have used any excuse to extradite him.

What I find barmy, the British authorities didnt bring any changes against him, which should mean there are no grounds for extradition. When he got the knock on the door he took the site down straight away, complying with their request. The British authorities didnt proceed with any criminal charges and it was a case closed situation. Then along came the US again and demanded extradition.

The defense argued that it merely provided links to external sites, exactly like Google does.

Sadly this has now opened the floodgates for the US taking more British citizens

[TVTyrant]

Are you suggesting that instead of charging suspect in the place they committed the crime in that they should be extradited purely because they're being requested to?
Seriously, if we're going to bother with knowing the laws in every country let's just make one unified state and get it over with.
The idea for extraditing people is to charge them on the soil they committed the crime in, not because it's convenient to the prosecutors who could ask for sentences not used in the countries where the crime was done.

Here's a good example, Execution is a practice not performed over here but is done in several US states.
Another example is on some countries making an physical representation of Mohammed can have you executed as well.
If I were to stick a turban and label on a teddy bear saying "Mohammed" should I be extradited to some random Islamist country because I Offended them and although no crime was committed where I live, it was there and for that I could be executed for something which in the place done is not a crime and yet punished for none the less on a soil I've never been to.

The reason extradition exists is if I committed a crime on foreign soil I could be sent back to said place to stand trial for the laws i broke in that place.
This makes so much sense its stupid. I completely agree with you, Warlord. Its absolutely silly to say that US law should apply in the UK, when UK laws were in place that would have dealt with the same actions and probably would have the same consequences.

Also why do you and Warsaw have the same avatars and locations etc. Is that because you hate each other or something? IDGI...

[rossmum]

Will people stop just throwing their ideas out there and actually look into the case?

Firstly, the UK did initially say no to extradition - US prosecutors put tremendous pressure on the UK to comply with the request. Yes I am angry we caved to the US - the treaty favours the US.

The US authorities argue that the website was hosted in the US and the majority of activity was from US citizens, meaning most of the crimes committed were from the US. This is a piss poor reason and they would have used any excuse to extradite him.

What I find barmy, the British authorities didnt bring any changes against him, which should mean there are no grounds for extradition. When he got the knock on the door he took the site down straight away, complying with their request. The British authorities didnt proceed with any criminal charges and it was a case closed situation. Then along came the US again and demanded extradition.

The defense argued that it merely provided links to external sites, exactly like Google does.

Sadly this has now opened the floodgates for the US taking more British citizens
Meanwhile, it will be a cold fucking day in hell before the US ever cooperates with the UK or any other country when an American is up for extradition. Double standards are America's thing these days!

[TVTyrant]

Meanwhile, it will be a cold fucking day in hell before the US ever cooperates with the UK or any other country when an American is up for extradition. Double standards are America's thing these days!
Yep. They always have been.

You okay man? ever since your return you've seemed to have a serious chip on your shoulder. Did something happen? This isn't the Ross I once loved :'(

[rossmum]

I just can't be bothered to put effort into posting so I basically take a shit all over my keyboard and hit the big blue button.

Also I'm really getting fed up with how many people, American and otherwise, honestly believe America is some kind of shining beacon of all that is good in the world when really, it's probably one of the most backward Western nations in pretty much every way that matters. Not to say it's a bad place, just that it needs a hell of a lot of fixing that isn't going to happen if retards blindly go about spewing nationalistic bullshit. For what it's worth I hate people like that in general, just the American ones tend to be the most noticeable and the easiest targets. Given all that, I tend to be pretty over-the-top at pointing out why America is all fucked up because anything less just gets swept under the carpet or passed off as 'lie-beral propaganda'. Also making people mad on the internet owns, so there's that.

[neuro]

soviet russia aint got SHIT on modern day america.

modern america is easily ten times more insane

[rossmum]

No, I wouldn't go that far. The Soviet Union under Stalin was pretty much second only to Nazi Germany because he didn't try and exterminate entire ethnic groups from the Earth, he just killed fucking everybody. Post-Stalin it was still pretty fucked up for a while, even through the 80s. On the other hand, everyone was provided for, everyone had some feeling of purpose, and the bullshit we have here in the West of whoever gets the biggest head start from mummy or daddy's money wins was not nearly as noticeable there (though there was a clear disparity between important Party members and normal people). They both had good and bad points, personally I would rather not have lived in either given the choice - I'll stick with Canada, thanks.

The common misonception that the Soviets were 'bad guys' or even aggressive at all during the Cold War is stupid though. Soviet war plans were all contingent on a NATO attack and purely defensive in nature; IIRC unless NATO began slinging nukes at Soviet cities, there were no intentions to nuke areas west of the Rhine as NATO troops were all concentrated to its east. There were no 'bad guys' in the Cold War, but America was certainly pushing its luck by antagonising the USSR as much as they did.

e/ Closer to the topic at hand, the UK itself is getting pretty terrible government-wise. When the public response to calls for CCTV to be installed in private homes is "why wasn't this suggested sooner", you know something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. Also I don't think I have ever seen a nation so radically against shooting or firearms ownership as the UK, and that's only come about fairly recently, too. I don't know what the fuck is going on but apparently people haven't been reading enough Orwell lately.

[Rentafence]

Why is this in the great debate? Does anyone actually support this bullshit?

[=sw=warlord]

Also why do you and Warsaw have the same avatars and locations etc. Is that because you hate each other or something? IDGI...
It came about after a few discussions in the past how we're always being confused with each other.
Even when i had the freaky rabbit as an avatar.

[Limited]

Ross, you really need to research...


Meanwhile, it will be a cold fucking day in hell before the US ever cooperates with the UK or any other country when an American is up for extradition. Double standards are America's thing these days!

Between 2004 and 2011, the US requested 130 extraditions, the UK refused 7 of them. During the same time period the UK requested 54 extraditions and the US refused 0 of them.

So, yeah 100% of extraditions were granted by the US, then again the cases may have been more concrete.

[=sw=warlord]

Source?

[DarkHalo003]

Pfffff you guys are just mad because he got caught. :iamafag:

(Totally not serious here)

Also, the extradition is by technicalities. He still broke a pretty well-known (basically global) law. Whether or not the U.S. is trying him or not is kind of subjective regaridng the case alone. He's still going to face prison (whether it be in Amurica or Jolly Ol England).

[neuro]

he didnt break a single UK law though.

linking to content isn't anything.
HOSTING content is something else ENTIRELY

[Limited]

Source?
Baker review 2011 (http://www.statewatch.org/news/2011/oct/uk-baker-extradition-review.pdf)

[Warsaw]

I just can't be bothered to put effort into posting so I basically take a shit all over my keyboard and hit the big blue button.

Also I'm really getting fed up with how many people, American and otherwise, honestly believe America is some kind of shining beacon of all that is good in the world when really, it's probably one of the most backward Western nations in pretty much every way that matters. Not to say it's a bad place, just that it needs a hell of a lot of fixing that isn't going to happen if retards blindly go about spewing nationalistic bullshit. For what it's worth I hate people like that in general, just the American ones tend to be the most noticeable and the easiest targets. Given all that, I tend to be pretty over-the-top at pointing out why America is all fucked up because anything less just gets swept under the carpet or passed off as 'lie-beral propaganda'. Also making people mad on the internet owns, so there's that.

I'm just fed up with nationalism, period.






Nuke everybody.

[TVTyrant]

I'm just fed up with nationalism, period.






Nuke everybody.

TRIBAL STATTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.african-tribes.org/naked-african-tribes.jpg

[rossmum]

Ross, you really need to research...



Between 2004 and 2011, the US requested 130 extraditions, the UK refused 7 of them. During the same time period the UK requested 54 extraditions and the US refused 0 of them.

So, yeah 100% of extraditions were granted by the US, then again the cases may have been more concrete.
But the million-dollar question: what were they for? How many were over copyright violation issues like this? Were they predominantly for more serious crimes?

[DarkHalo003]

I'm just fed up with nationalism, period.






Nuke everybody.
Nah, I rather go visit SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE.

[rossmum]

my planet's better than your planet

gas all martians

[TVTyrant]

my planet's better than your planet

gas all martians
Whatever bro, you live in Australia. They won't even waste nukes on you.

[Bodzilla]

you gotta remember tyrant, we supply the shit that builds your nukes.

be nice to us, or you may go the way of the common back packer.

[TVTyrant]

you gotta remember tyrant, we supply the shit that builds your nukes.

be nice to us, or you may go the way of the common back packer.
I actually really want to visit Australia someday. The salt water fishing is supposed to be great.

Also its my number two for "fuck we elected Hitler, time to escape..." country. My number one is obviously Canada, since its the closest and most sane.

[rossmum]

This is the last country that should be on your list for that, dude. Not only are we trying our damndest to be America's #1 BFF, but Australians also can't make up their minds if they want to be Americans or British. I would put good money on this place going fascist well before the US, as bad as the US can be (politically speaking) at times. The climate is also Literally Hitler (summer right now, temp can and will reach 110 on any given day and has hit 125 before, 90% humidity here on the coast, I want to end my own fucking shitty life to get away from it all) and there's really not a lot to see or do. I guess if you're the postcard sort then you might enjoy places like Sydney and Uluru and Surfers' Paradise, and the Barrier Reef is cool, but outside that... egh. Any given coastal area looks like any other given coastal area, the 'mountains' are more like tree-clad sandstone cliffs which only occasionally get high enough for fake snow to be believable, and the desert is... well, a fucking desert. I won't lie, there are some nice spots, but the overall majority of the country is about as picturesque as a bucket of grey-green paint and the cities are absolutely nothing special (actually they're kind of shit). Also you're isolated from literally everywhere, which means holidays are expensive as fuck and involve long travel times (~24 hours to the US direct) and everything is overpriced as shit (though granted, the economy is doing pretty well and our minimum wage is something like double yours). Oh and every single living thing is designed to, and usually also determined to, kill you.

Canada is still ~the best place~.

[TVTyrant]

Maybe I will add Siberia as my third. LOL.

[DarkHalo003]

I'd go to Australia (vistas are grand, people are like college students, not to mention the wildlife) or Britain. It would also be conceivable to go to Japan, though I'd probably revel in the countryside for the most part. Japanese cities kind of worry me for some reason, not sure why.

[TVTyrant]

I'd go to Australia (vistas are grand, people are like college students, not to mention the wildlife) or Britain. It would also be conceivable to go to Japan, though I'd probably revel in the countryside for the most part. Japanese cities kind of worry me for some reason, not sure why.
Because every person is allocated two feet at a time?

[rossmum]

I'd go to Australia (vistas are grand,
Okay you got me here, I'm grossly exaggerating the monotony and drabness. After 15 years it becomes oppressive though.


people are like college students,
Not sure what you mean here, but the people are just okay. I guess coming from the US your mind might be blown by how little most of the country cares about anything but we have more than our fair share of hyper-conservatives and white trash (locally known as bogans or derros). Racism is also still very much a thing, just as it is anywhere else, but again coming from the US it might not seem it. I dunno which area of which state you're in though, so there's that. Worse than the north, usually nowhere near as bad as the south, put it that way.


not to mention the wildlife)
It hates you and wants to kill you.

Koalas and kangaroos and wombats and shit are cute and fuzzy and there are some interesting animals though I guess. It's not like people think though. You don't see roos unless you go out into more rural areas and even then it's hit and miss, they're not really a big thing and they aren't especially remarkable to watch. In fact pretty much the only native wildlife you will see outside of a zoo unless you spend a few days or weeks in a rural area are the birds. Australian birds are cool though.

Still, better watch out for drop bears.


or Britain.
Wonderful place, I would love to go back. In terms of residency it's become a no-go zone for me even though I'm still a citizen (yeah triple citizenship, what of it) because of the general ignorant fear of guns and open hostility towards people interested in them, and also I really don't go for the whole nanny state thing at all. I actually don't have issues with the police here and I didn't in the UK either but they have too much power and there is not enough privacy. There is a ton to see and do and the people are generally pretty nice though, the girls are absolutely stunning and you have all of Europe just across the channel (the best part of living there other than the airshows and museums... was being able to go to airshows and museums in Europe on a whim. Heh).


It would also be conceivable to go to Japan, though I'd probably revel in the countryside for the most part. Japanese cities kind of worry me for some reason, not sure why.
I'm not sure I'd want to go to Japan. Chance of running into sperglords trying to impress the locals with their shitty cosplay puts me right off. Their culture (as in their actual culture) and history is pretty interesting and the land itself seems nice enough, but eh. Crowded, language I don't even begin to understand, sperglords. No thanks. I kind of want to go to Vietnam though, especially after talking to a friend who went back recently (was a tunnel rat). The people sound lovely, the country seems nice (despite being hot and tropical, the kind of climate I hate most) and you can blow up cars with RPGs for like $5. Sold. It was also really nice to hear someone who was over there during the war talk about how he's glad that things turned out so well for them, and being able to see he meant it. Apparently they were really nice to him and the mates he went with too, except for like one old dude in a market.

Dying to go to Eastern Europe, furthest east I've been was Frankfurt (not on the Oder, the big one). Friend and I plan to hit up Pripyat once we can afford it.

[TeeKup]

^ Vietnam is surprisingly well off now a-days. It would be interesting to visit there myself. If I were to move out of country I'd probably settle for New Zealand, Germany or England.

[nuttyyayap]

Ugh, I just want to go back home to Germany, screw Australia, Ross summed it up PERFECTLY.
England's nice though.
NZ is pretty cool but the accents urk me. (what can I say, being German/Japanese though...)
Vietnam has too many destroyed F-105's but otherwise it's cool
So yeah