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Donut
April 23rd, 2009, 12:20 AM
That doesn't even sound like airsoft Donut. Are you sure your "local field" isn't just the local park? Sounds like you're playing with a bunch of kiddies that aren't even old enough (16-ish imo) to be playing airsoft. Also, if anyone "broke" one of my airsoft guns, they'd be paying me the complete price of what went into it.
no we dont HAVE a local field. there isnt a local field. we use this open back yard thing. it sucks, which is why i envy you guys who have people who dont suck at war games, and have a suitable environment to play in. my friend and went in the woods in my back yard only one time, and my friend ended up getting lost. he wont admit that its his fault my gun is broken either. and yeah the people i have played with are 16. suffices to say that i dont play airsoft with my friend anymore, and hes never touching my guns, or what is left of them, again.
im 15 though, and it doesnt bother me to get shot. yes it stings, yes it hurts, but you dont hear me screaming about it. the only time i have ever even come CLOSE to playing real airsoft was with 7 other people in this sandy area with some trees and hills. so they put everyone with automatics on one team on a hill, and put me with my friend (which is when he broke my gun) and this kid with nothing but a gas powered pistol on the other team. i dont even fucking know what happened to the 4th guy on our team. i just wandered around, camped a bit waiting for somebody to come (nobody ever did), and explored the woods. turns out the 4 kids on the other team camped all 4 sides of this hill and never moved once. i went on a hike on what seemed to be an ATV trail. oh and then when we called a cease fire and everyone put down their guns to get some water, you know, glasses off and all that, one of the dipshits takes his automatic and sprays us all down with it. at the end of the day, i nicknamed the field "Auschwitz", and went home with a broken gun. good times :highfive:

E: and i still dont get what age has to do with it, besides possible legality issues. i mean obviously little 11 year olds shouldn't be running around with these things, but if you have the proper protection, then it really isnt an issue. i shoot all the time, real guns and airsoft, and as long as you have a functioning brain bouncing around inside your cranium, loaded with at least a semi-recent version of the "common sense" software, i dont see an issue with ages 13-16 playing airsoft, or some vaguely similar variant of it.

Cortexian
April 23rd, 2009, 01:02 AM
E: and i still dont get what age has to do with it, besides possible legality issues. i mean obviously little 11 year olds shouldn't be running around with these things, but if you have the proper protection, then it really isnt an issue. i shoot all the time, real guns and airsoft, and as long as you have a functioning brain bouncing around inside your cranium, loaded with at least a semi-recent version of the "common sense" software, i dont see an issue with ages 13-16 playing airsoft, or some vaguely similar variant of it.
I used to think that way when I was 14/15 as well, I really wanted to get into airsoft a lot but ALL of the local fields were 16 minimum to play. You don't realize how immature you are/were until you look back at it and reflect. I certainly see why the age limit of 16 or older is in place where I live now that I can actually see all the kids in my position.

In my honest opinion, getting shot with an airsoft gun doesn't hurt in the slightest, even point blank. It stings like hell for a couple of seconds but it does NOT hurt. I classify "hurting" as something that pains you for a prolonged period of time, for example: broken bone. Once you've gone through enough painful things you can just shrug off things like getting hit with airsoft rounds.

I distinctly remember getting shot right in the nose after turning a corner in an indoor CQB arena once, it stung like hell and I couldn't see because my eyes watered up... I still just called "hit" and stumbled back to the respawn, then sat down and waited for my eyes to clear and went back to playing. It wasn't until after the game ended and we were in the lobby that someone pointed out that the BB was still stuck about half way into the skin of my nose... That was a bit of a shocked and after my adrenaline from the game wore off, IT HURT.

You haven't played a good game of airsoft until you come of the field with a BB lodged in your skin. :rolleyes:

Chocolate_Rain
April 23rd, 2009, 05:49 AM
Snafhas some pretty cool swords. oh and he lieks /b/ fantastic!

SnaFuBAR
April 23rd, 2009, 03:07 PM
that was actually /k/ that ross linked me to. was some afghan war pics that i needed.

Warsaw
April 23rd, 2009, 03:14 PM
I used to think that way when I was 14/15 as well, I really wanted to get into airsoft a lot but ALL of the local fields were 16 minimum to play. You don't realize how immature you are/were until you look back at it and reflect. I certainly see why the age limit of 16 or older is in place where I live now that I can actually see all the kids in my position.

In my honest opinion, getting shot with an airsoft gun doesn't hurt in the slightest, even point blank. It stings like hell for a couple of seconds but it does NOT hurt. I classify "hurting" as something that pains you for a prolonged period of time, for example: broken bone. Once you've gone through enough painful things you can just shrug off things like getting hit with airsoft rounds.

I distinctly remember getting shot right in the nose after turning a corner in an indoor CQB arena once, it stung like hell and I couldn't see because my eyes watered up... I still just called "hit" and stumbled back to the respawn, then sat down and waited for my eyes to clear and went back to playing. It wasn't until after the game ended and we were in the lobby that someone pointed out that the BB was still stuck about half way into the skin of my nose... That was a bit of a shocked and after my adrenaline from the game wore off, IT HURT.

You haven't played a good game of airsoft until you come of the field with a BB lodged in your skin. :rolleyes:

I wish that my field had a minimum 16 years age limit...I have to deal with people as young as EIGHT years old running around screaming...it balances out because there are some great guys here, but occasionally some moron will think it's fine to let his grade-school kid play with him. Best way to deal with them: spray them down sans mercy when you encounter them...they will stay out of the way next round...

Donut
April 23rd, 2009, 03:40 PM
alright, that makes sense freelancer. so 16 would be an enforced age minimum. in hindsight, i cannot believe that this didnt occur to me, but today's stereotypical 16 year old is one of the the most brain dead animals around. i get what you mean by childish. so i guess i have about 3 months to go until i can play at a field. in the mean time, i can try and find some people who DONT suck at everything that is airsoft and actually FIND a field to play in. and maybe get a better gun than what i have now. i was thinking about getting an m249 for an automatic, but its like $500 US.
E: i have these book marked from a while back
for a side arm
http://www.hobbytron.com/ASG-action-series.html

and for an automatic, this
http://www.hobbytron.com/ElectricClassicArmyM249AEGRifleAirsoftGunJCCAM249P ARA.html
or this
http://www.hobbytron.com/ElectricClassicArmySAWM249AEGRifleAirsoftGunJCCAM2 49MKII.html
i think they are the same thing, but one is about a hundred bucks more

or hell, maybe this
http://www.hobbytron.com/BOYIElectricFullMetalMK12AEGAirsoftRifle.html

thehoodedsmack
April 23rd, 2009, 04:48 PM
Y'know what I hate? =_= Trains The Woods Lawyers Cheaters. I've seen bbs cover a guy, and he'll still say he wasn't hit! It's always the damn little kids, too.

@What Donut was grammbling about: I think you're right about the 16 year-old thing. I've read that, in Canada at least, it's statistically proven that, on average, the kids entering high school or in the early years of it are the most self-absorbed, unintelligent, disrespectful lot in the history of educational records. Makes me sad...

Cortexian
April 23rd, 2009, 08:22 PM
The airsoft community in my city started back in the 80's basically, so they've had plenty of time to grind out decent rules and regs for playing in the local area. Granted that it's different from place to place. Since airsoft is such an honor based game for calling hits, the age limit also comes into effect. A kid playing with a bunch of big bad fully armored guys with full gear may get a little intimidated, therefore they might get a little insecure and NOT call hits because they're embaresd about their skill level. I can't count the times that I've been playing with some kids under 16 that do that. Our "offical community" games enforce the age 16+ rule, some parents let there kids play at non-community run games.

One time I was playing with some of the community members aginst a group of kids ranging 12-14 maybe with jeans and Canadian Tire guns, obviously we had full gear, fully upgraded weapons, and outranged and outgunned them. We decided that to make it "fair" we would send some of our guys over to their team and some of them on our team. It was great to watch some of the kids on our team not only get hit, but hit in the face and fall over as a reaction. However they didn't call those hits, and we didn't complain because we had radios. Radios are great when you've got a throat mic and an open Com to everyone you're playing with (even the guys on the other team, HEH). We "decided" that if someone on our team saw one of the kids not calling hits, we'd run over to them, give them false intel on where we saw some enemy movement, and then tell them to run through an open area to get to a "better position". Of course the guys that we had on the enemy team were listening to our active Com's and just opened up on the kids while they ran to new areas. In the end it worked out pretty well. Watching kids that don't call their headshots get hosed down by 3+ guys on full auto...

:iamafag:

I have to admit though, a lot of times I haven't noticed hits, and as long as someone points it out I'll call it if it was feasible and I saw them firing at me. Everyone does this around here.

EDIT:
Awesome, hot chicks explaining airsoft fairly well!

NObeS23ZI9g

:caruso:

"In the real world when you are hit by a real bullet, you don't have the luxury to respond."

"In the real world, you die!" *Happy*

CALL YOUR HITS!

Lulz, skip to 3:15 here:
jFYQwX2EayE

Cortexian
April 24th, 2009, 04:35 PM
^^^ CHECK OUT MY EDITS YES! ^^^

Cortexian
April 28th, 2009, 12:36 AM
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3664/peacethroughsuperiorfir.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1222/g36mags04.jpg

:caruso:

I'll post more pics later.

Cojafoji
April 28th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Do you actually, and honest to god, spend money on that stuff?

Cortexian
April 28th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Do you actually, and honest to god, spend money on that stuff?
Yes I do, it's an awesome sport so I'm willing to throw money at it.

Why? You make it sound like it's beneath you (I LOL'ed).

Cojafoji
April 28th, 2009, 02:50 AM
Yes I do, it's an awesome sport so I'm willing to throw money at it.

Why? You make it sound like it's beneath you (I LOL'ed).
Here's to you freelancer. Enjoy your special little victory.

rossmum
April 28th, 2009, 06:03 AM
Yes I do, it's an awesome sport so I'm willing to throw money at it.

Why? You make it sound like it's beneath you (I LOL'ed).
this post makes me want to get a snap of me with an f88 and post it so i can have a lol

airsoft is still illegal here, gun laws suck, government sucks

Cortexian
April 28th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Here's to you freelancer. Enjoy your special little victory.
Meh, some of us like to go outside and have fun. As opposed to sitting on a PC all day...

Enjoy your boring life Coja.

BobtheGreatII
April 28th, 2009, 02:19 PM
Here's to you freelancer. Enjoy your special little victory.

Not a good way to bring yourself in to these forums...

Cojafoji
April 28th, 2009, 03:06 PM
Totally boring freelancer. Totally boring. The spur of the moment canoeing trip I took on Sunday was really in front of my computer. I had no idea that computer graphics were so good. Really.

ExAm
April 28th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Not a good way to bring yourself in to these forums...
Yeah, that's good advi--


Totally boring freelancer. Totally boring. The spur of the moment canoeing trip I took on Sunday was really in front of my computer. I had no idea that computer graphics were so good. Really.
What did Bob just say!?

Cojafoji
April 28th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Yeah, that's good advi--


What did Bob just say!?
Hahahahahaha.

Donut
April 28th, 2009, 03:39 PM
so freelancer likes to play airsoft, and coji likes to canoe. i dont see what the issue is here. if its about the airsoft thing, i would think one is to expect talk of airsoft in a thread titled "airsoft"

Rosco
April 28th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Totally boring freelancer. Totally boring. The spur of the moment canoeing trip I took on Sunday was really in front of my computer. I had no idea that computer graphics were so good. Really.

It's k coja, you could best him in a 1v1 on halo :haw:

BobtheGreatII
April 28th, 2009, 04:50 PM
so freelancer likes to play airsoft, and coji likes to canoe. i dont see what the issue is here. if its about the airsoft thing, i would think one is to expect talk of airsoft in a thread titled "airsoft"

Whatever. Here's to you modacity. Enjoy your special little victory.

I hate the internet. I think it's a waste of time.

Now let me go sex up my super model girlfriend and go play some football with all my friends I drink and smoke pot with while getting strait A's.

:v:

p0lar_bear
April 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM
Max I'd be willing to shell out for any airsoft gun is $50, minus accessories.

Paying more, I might as well just upgrade my computer and buy Call of Duty 4 or something.

Amit
April 28th, 2009, 05:11 PM
Max I'd be willing to shell out for any airsoft gun is $50, minus accessories.

Paying more, I might as well just upgrade my computer and buy Call of Duty 4 or something.

Lol, Bear, with your history of a crap PC that would be the best option for you.

Longshot
April 28th, 2009, 10:07 PM
\o

By the way, they're gonna see if they can get me enlisted by mid May, wootles

e/ lel whoops this got a bit derailed
So you're gonna join the Army Reserve? I was enlisted on May 20 2008, so it's almost been a year for me. Greatest decision I ever made.

I wish Airsoft was legal here though, gun laws in Australia are all around stupid. I'd totally get an M4A1 Carbine and an F88.

Sanctus
December 1st, 2009, 06:42 PM
This is my gun that I just bought
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm28/fISha_1791/file_21_12.jpg
I'm trying to get gear little by little. I get paid tomorrow so I'm gonna get a facemask and maybe a BDU vest. This thing is about the same weight as my uncle's AR-15, same size too.:neckbeard:

Cortexian
December 1st, 2009, 06:51 PM
What's up with that stock?

Also, get protective glasses or even goggles if you can instead of a mask. Masks are horribly uncomfortable while playing long games and they're unrealistic while playing MilSims.

Timo
December 1st, 2009, 07:09 PM
Also, get protective glasses or even goggles if you can instead of a mask. Masks are horribly uncomfortable while playing long games and they're unrealistic while playing MilSims.

You should use real bullets too in MilSims because plastic pellets are unrealistic as well.

Cortexian
December 1st, 2009, 07:17 PM
You should use real bullets too in MilSims because plastic pellets are unrealistic as well.
I think you're missing the point that airsoft is a hobby/sport, think playground cops 'n robbers except for adults and much more realistic.

It's extremely fun and anyone who says otherwise hasn't played airsoft before.

PenGuin1362
December 1st, 2009, 07:31 PM
except some people aren't comfortable with getting their teeth shot out. or face bruised up. seeing as how my gun shoots at 435 FPS i wouldn't blame anyone who wore a full face mask.

Donut
December 1st, 2009, 07:54 PM
looking back a few pages it has occurred to me that i still havent found anybody who doesnt suck at life to play with.

if i actually had any significant sum of money and people to play with i would definitely get back into this sport

ExAm
December 1st, 2009, 08:36 PM
I always use a mask. Drilled holes around the edges for airflow to avoid fogging. Works great, except for when I need to use my scope...

Warsaw
December 1st, 2009, 08:52 PM
except some people aren't comfortable with getting their teeth shot out. or face bruised up. seeing as how my gun shoots at 435 FPS i wouldn't blame anyone who wore a full face mask.

Werd.

Just get a low-profile face mask; they are comfortable, let you use irons and scopes, don't fog (unless they are the lense kind and not the mesh), and as an added bonus they make you look like a Helghast soldier when you couple it with a helmet.

:iamafag:

Kalub
December 1st, 2009, 08:55 PM
Hey, I have a CM028.... it's P awesome

Amit
December 1st, 2009, 09:00 PM
Werd.

Just get a low-profile face mask; they are comfortable, let you use irons and scopes, don't fog (unless they are the lense kind and not the mesh), and as an added bonus they make you look like a Helghast soldier when you couple it with a helmet.

:iamafag:

You mean like this? :iamafag: Those aren't low-profile, but fuck I'd get that setup any day, just not for regular play.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/hackles/KILLZONE/armoredsoldier01.jpg

Warsaw
December 1st, 2009, 09:40 PM
Shit, I would too if I had that kind of money to blow.

They need to modify their guns though, not just go with stock WWII weapons.

Gwunty
December 1st, 2009, 09:44 PM
I think you're missing the point that airsoft is a hobby/sport, think playground cops 'n robbers except for adults and much more realistic.

It's extremely fun and anyone who says otherwise hasn't played airsoft before.
im going to quote you then make fun of you
becuase you cant do anything about it

ha freelacer u so ugly
and fat
what does your gun shoot
hamburgers that you then proceed to eat?

and your games are so unrealistic lalalala hahahaha :downs::downs::downs::downs:

Inferno
December 1st, 2009, 09:50 PM
There is a line between "fun hobby" and "obsessive hobby that I just spent a shit ton of money on".

Walk back a few miles and you will find the line freelancer. I've though about buying a couple of air soft pistols and playing with my friends but I don't have the money to blow.

DEElekgolo
December 1st, 2009, 10:12 PM
LOOKIT DIS AIRSOFT GUN (http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/ika/ika_1.html)
http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/ika/01.jpg

Donut
December 1st, 2009, 10:34 PM
i attempted to model that gun a while back. i stress the word "attempted".

Amit
December 1st, 2009, 10:55 PM
Is that thing supposed to be ergonomic?

ExAm
December 1st, 2009, 11:46 PM
It's supposed to be cool. I wish more companies designed their own airsoft guns.

Warsaw
December 1st, 2009, 11:52 PM
It's inspired by some obscure (to me) Japanese anime, or course it looks shitty.

TeeKup
December 2nd, 2009, 12:09 AM
It reminds me of the SMG from ghost in the shell.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/527/1168505824215dx7.jpg

Sanctus
December 2nd, 2009, 06:55 AM
What's up with that stock?

.

It's a folding stock

Warsaw
December 2nd, 2009, 05:22 PM
It reminds me of the SMG from ghost in the shell.



It does, only I know for sure it isn't from GitS. The old Evike store had the description, but I don't think the new one does.

Spartan094
December 2nd, 2009, 08:02 PM
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/airgundepot_2082_2545369
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/airgundepot_2078_55284572
MP40 airsoft gun, full metal
yeee, Its really nice too, I hate plastic BB guns.

SonicXtreme
December 2nd, 2009, 08:43 PM
It reminds me of the SMG from ghost in the shell.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/527/1168505824215dx7.jpg

Did some research ages ago when i was covering an article on GiTs and Appleseed , all the guns from both those franchise`s are designed by the same person the make is .."Seburo"

The one in question is a Seburo Poseidon 9

Cortexian
December 2nd, 2009, 08:58 PM
except some people aren't comfortable with getting their teeth shot out. or face bruised up. seeing as how my gun shoots at 435 FPS i wouldn't blame anyone who wore a full face mask.
I've been hit in the face with a 500+ FPS sniper rifle and it resulted in a minor welt for a couple of days but that's it, but we generally play with minimal engagement rules to prevent dangerous shooting from happening. High power snipers can't fire on targets closer than 15-20 yards away, and anyone firing over 350 FPS is advised to aim appropriately when in close quarters (for example, chest, legs, or arms instead of the head). We also encourage people to avoid head shots unless it's the only part of the person you can viably hit safely.

TeeKup
December 2nd, 2009, 09:43 PM
Did some research ages ago when i was covering an article on GiTs and Appleseed , all the guns from both those franchise`s are designed by the same person the make is .."Seburo"

The one in question is a Seburo Poseidon 9

Thanks for the info there sonic. :p

Warsaw
December 2nd, 2009, 11:05 PM
I've been hit in the face with a 500+ FPS sniper rifle and it resulted in a minor welt for a couple of days but that's it, but we generally play with minimal engagement rules to prevent dangerous shooting from happening. High power snipers can't fire on targets closer than 15-20 yards away, and anyone firing over 350 FPS is advised to aim appropriately when in close quarters (for example, chest, legs, or arms instead of the head). We also encourage people to avoid head shots unless it's the only part of the person you can viably hit safely.

And I've been hit with a smattering of 300fps rounds at about 10 feet. That left some serious marks for a month. I sincerely doubt you were hit with the full 500fps, or even with 420 for that matter.

@Spartan094: Except the MP40 was not designed by and never had anything to do with Schmeisser. :downs:

Daishi
December 2nd, 2009, 11:56 PM
I've been hit by a group of four 400+ FPS rounds at 15 feet, and shit do those hurt. Marks were there for a good month-month and a half. Point is, BBs lose power pretty quickly past 50ft.

Cortexian
December 3rd, 2009, 12:05 AM
And I've been hit with a smattering of 300fps rounds at about 10 feet. That left some serious marks for a month. I sincerely doubt you were hit with the full 500fps, or even with 420 for that matter.

@Spartan094: Except the MP40 was not designed by and never had anything to do with Schmeisser. :downs:
It was an upgraded VFC M82A1 8mm gas sniper rifle using "Red Gas" and chronoed at an average of 503 FPS (it shoots 430-450 FPS stock) before we started playing that day. Obviously we were playing at an outdoor field, the only reason it was chronoed was because it was the first time the owner had fielded it after installing his upgrades, comprised of a stronger spring, custom higher capacity valves, and more durable piston components... I was hit at about 50 yards, and even though he was using 8mm aluminum BB's it didn't hurt any more than a regular 300-350 FPS AEG at that range. He apologized for hitting me in the face and said he was aiming for my upper-chest, apparently the hopup is extremely touchy on the VFC M82A1's because of the sheer power and speed the BB has behind it while moving over the hopup rubber, and that was his excuse for hitting me in the face with the thing.

To give you an idea:
-Yqiuuexyrs

Look at the damage to the plastic bucket, that's pretty impressive, a normal AEG would be able to penetrate that.

Warsaw
December 3rd, 2009, 01:31 PM
I wass hit at 50 yards

50x3=150 feet. Most airsoft guns can't even be felt at 150 feet; I'm not surprised it didn't hurt much.

I guess I should clarify my point though, since I didn't before and because this is a blind argument for or against facemasks. If you are playing outside, facemasks are nowhere near as important as when you are playing in a CQC environment. That being said, there are still outdoor instances where facemasks are good to have, those being a.) small play area and b.) village scenarios.

ICEE
December 3rd, 2009, 02:12 PM
I only played an actual airsoft game once. We all had goggles on to protect the eyes. I used my friends sniper rifle, and was hiding in the brush. Goggles make it hard to look through a scope, so I rotated them so that my right eye was exposed. Sure enough, when I had to run out of there and someone got a line on me, the only part of me that got hit was my one exposed eye.

Fucking protect your eyes

Cortexian
December 3rd, 2009, 02:54 PM
50x3=150 feet. Most airsoft guns can't even be felt at 150 feet; I'm not surprised it didn't hurt much.
Oh, I know this, I play at least once a month if I can get out/afford the field fees that day.


I guess I should clarify my point though, since I didn't before and because this is a blind argument for or against facemasks. If you are playing outside, facemasks are nowhere near as important as when you are playing in a CQC environment. That being said, there are still outdoor instances where facemasks are good to have, those being a.) small play area and b.) village scenarios.
They're even worse in my opinion, generally QCB arenas are poorly lit and almost all masks make it nearly impossible to see. Not to mention that CQB arenas are usually indoors, so the mask is just going to get hot and sweaty 10x faster than goggles or glasses.

I personally would rather have a fun time without worrying about my eye/face protection, even at the risk or getting hit in the face. Also, around here the CQB arenas are FPS limited to 350 and the guns are limited to semi-automatic only (unless you've got a full-auto only weapon, then you're encouraged to fire controlled bursts)... This is most likely different where you are though, and I see the point in wearing a face mask, but I'd rather just take the pain and have a good time!

I've been hit square in the nose at 300 FPS from less than 15 feet.. Made my eyes water up uncontrollably, started bleeding, and it stung like hell but I called my hit and fumbled out of the arena (since I couldn't see, lmao)!


I only played an actual airsoft game once. We all had goggles on to protect the eyes. I used my friends sniper rifle, and was hiding in the brush. Goggles make it hard to look through a scope, so I rotated them so that my right eye was exposed. Sure enough, when I had to run out of there and someone got a line on me, the only part of me that got hit was my one exposed eye.

Fucking protect your eyes
This happens extremely often while we're playing, though it's usually someone taking their eye protection off to try and clean out the fog instead of repositioning them to scope targets. One guy that plays with us nearly lost an eye by cleaning his goggles, he had three welts less than 2mm from one eye, and a couple more 5mm from his other... It's pretty scary, so I never take my eye protection off regardless of their viability condition. I'd rather run around like a crazed gunman shooting randomly than get my eyes shot out!

ICEE
December 3rd, 2009, 06:00 PM
our battleground is pretty rough though, theres a lot of shit to trip over. Makes great cover, but if your all fogged up you could hurt yourself. This is why I like to snipe. I can pick people off from hiding while not having to put in any :effort: