The Xbone

[Pooky]

@Freelancer:
Well me neither, but still.

@Skyline:
Because your local hardware can't necessarily do high-resolution geometry AND high resolution textures AND high fidelity lighting, that's why. The numbers can be more or less densely packed, and you'd have an algorithm that smooths out the final image. The whole point is that you transmit only the bare minimum information needed to draw that 2D image; but you first need to calculate the detailed image before you can decide where to put your info points. This is why I said voxels (which I still maintain are an illusion) might become a thing again. I've seen voxel animation, and the only reason it looked bad was because the game came out in the mid-90s and PCs simply didn't have the horsepower. We now have the horsepower.

But will it be more fun than Super Mario Brothers?

[Warsaw]

That's not hard to do... :aaaaa:

[Donut]

I think his question is whether or not all this new technology will actually improve the core game play of a game, or if it's all just eye candy. In between my Bad Company and Chivalry sessions the past couple of days, I've played Chulip for the PS2, replayed Pikmin on the gamecube, and am now replaying Pikmin 2. Before that I was playing Banjo Tooie. So how far are these graphics going to go in making me want to replay these new games like that? Because as neat as graphical advancement is, it's not HD textures and lighting that keep me playing a game.

[Warsaw]

I think the primary use for their new cloud outside of the core features will be to store content that doesn't need to go on the disk, allowing you to have a bigger world without taking up more space on the drive.

[Limited]

Cloud computing for graphical simulations (like rendering lighting, LOD etc) doesnt make any sense to me. Microsoft is only in it for the money. How much would these cloud computing servers cost them? How much are they to run/maintain/cost of engineers? There becomes are point where the cost effectiveness dips, making it pointless business wise to them.

I envisage them using cloud computing for data simulation purposes. For example you have a persistent MMO, the player might log off but the cloud can continue to run the simulations. They could be used to hammer out really intensive algorithms and spit the output to everyone connected and store the data for people who are offline, when they log back in they can resync their game data and they won't have lost any progress. This method allows a users console to basically only focus on their local environment, and would give more availability of the computing power to graphical calculations.

tl;dr Cloud computing to run non-graphical calculations and simulations, freeing the console up to work on graphics.

[Warsaw]

That's actually what I just said above you, only in a more succinct fashion. The world gets stored remotely, including those algorithms, and so your console just does graphics work while the dynamics are streamed to you. MMOs are a great example. Heck, even the level data could be piped to you for rendering in pieces if the world is large enough; you have half the continent on the disc/HDD, and then you stream another quarter when you get there while it deletes the locations less-visited by you. Like programs that get pre-loaded into RAM when they are used often but get removed when they are no longer accessed with frequency.

If you look at it from a "computing as a service" viewpoint, it all makes sense. Microsoft wants to get everybody paying for Xbox Live and, if they can get away with it, for the extra services that aren't included in that $60/year fee. If the computing service they provide is cheaper to execute than the price people are willing to pay for it, they'll do it. Since this new network of theirs is supposedly flexible enough to do basically anything you want, we'll just have to see how the logistics and economics play out.

[Btcc22]

For example you have a persistent MMO, the player might log off but the cloud can continue to run the simulations. They could be used to hammer out really intensive algorithms and spit the output to everyone connected and store the data for people who are offline

What's new here? MMOs have always worked this way. The only difference is that a cluster of servers is now called a 'cloud'. I can't view many MMO developers being keen to use third party cloud services anyway. A loss of control coupled with a good chance of increased costs doesn't seem very attractive.

As for streaming level data, there's no point when disk space is cheaper and easier to upgrade than bandwidth. I'd be pretty surprised if that changed any time soon.

[Warsaw]

Except disk space isn't unlimited and, as far as I know, the Xbone has a fixed hard drive. Besides, the world may get bigger after the initial launch of the game.

Disk space is cheap but this isn't about expenses, it's about convenience. It's not convenient to have to manually go through and uninstall games to make room for another game expanding. A live system removes that need, and people who subscribe to Gold would probably appreciate the feature. At the very least, it would give some legitimacy to Xbox Live.

[Zeph]

http://i.imgur.com/ReXwrfs.jpg

Yeah, this is what happens when your press conference tells people things and your hidden agenda doesn't.

[CabooseJr]

So what game(s) are we getting for July?

[Zeph]

Some tower defense game on the 5th.

[TeeKup]

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/report-xbox-chief-leaving-microsoft-zynga-top-spot-173941917.html

NOzN8gHvJlY

[El Lobo]

I've been an Xbox guy since Halo came out. I'm leaning towards the PS4 for the next gen. Is that crazy or do you guys think I'm making the right move? Let me know, thanks....

[Btcc22]

Depends on the games you're interested in, I suppose. For me, since I don't care about Halo, the better hardware at a lower price gives it my support. That and my forgiveness isn't so readily granted.

[Champ]

I've been an Xbox guy since Halo came out. I'm leaning towards the PS4 for the next gen. Is that crazy or do you guys think I'm making the right move? Let me know, thanks....
I've been heavily leaning towards the PS4 myself, Lobo. We think alike ;)

[Kornman00]

I preordered my PS4 after E3 was over

[El Lobo]

I've been heavily leaning towards the PS4 myself, Lobo. We think alike ;):D

Yeahhhhh. Just preordered PS4 bundle with BF4 on Amazon. Looking forward to it very much so. I know it's not backwards compatible for disks, but do you guys think they'll have a lot of PS3 games available on a marketplace eventually? Wanting to try out MGS4, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc. at some point.

[Kornman00]

Pretty sure it's not backwards compatible, period. If they offer and PS3 games it will probably be through an OnLive type service.

[Phopojijo]

:D

Yeahhhhh. Just preordered PS4 bundle with BF4 on Amazon. Looking forward to it very much so. I know it's not backwards compatible for disks, but do you guys think they'll have a lot of PS3 games available on a marketplace eventually? Wanting to try out MGS4, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc. at some point.PS4 will not play PS3 games unless they are streamed through Gaikai... or Sony changes their mind.

That said, the only changes to PS3 compatibility was to slowly *remove it* as it became costly or a potential piracy vector.

[Warsaw]

So this here is pretty neat. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Cloud-Light-Voxel-Irradiance-Map-Photons-Rendering,23718.html) Distributed lighting between server and client via the internet. And it uses, wait for it, voxels! This is basically lighting by numbers. Who called it? I called it. Go to hell.

Unfortunately for Xbone, it's running AMD hardware.

[Dwood]

So this here is pretty neat. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Cloud-Light-Voxel-Irradiance-Map-Photons-Rendering,23718.html) Distributed lighting between server and client via the internet. And it uses, wait for it, voxels! This is basically lighting by numbers. Who called it? I called it. Go to hell.

Unfortunately for Xbone, it's running AMD hardware.

must spread rep.
I'm using this as my sig quote from now on.

[Btcc22]

So this here is pretty neat. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Cloud-Light-Voxel-Irradiance-Map-Photons-Rendering,23718.html) Distributed lighting between server and client via the internet. And it uses, wait for it, voxels! This is basically lighting by numbers. Who called it? I called it. Go to hell.

Unfortunately for Xbone, it's running AMD hardware.

I don't think anybody said it couldn't be done, just that it probably wasn't feasible at this point. With a quick glance at the paper (I'll read it all when I have time), this technique still makes you pay for the latency (hello real-time) and a very hefty bandwidth toll that'd make online games unplayable on most connections.

[Zeph]

So this here is pretty neat. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Cloud-Light-Voxel-Irradiance-Map-Photons-Rendering,23718.html) Distributed lighting between server and client via the internet. And it uses, wait for it, voxels! This is basically lighting by numbers. Who called it? I called it. Go to hell.

Unfortunately for Xbone, it's running AMD hardware.

Fuck off. You not see that last part of the video or something?
Latency was the reason I said was why you don't render the simulation with data not from the client.
The moment you tie dynamic lighting into something players control is the moment that 100ms latency becomes input lag and you know damn well how much gamers despise input lag.

This has its uses in the LAN, but that's it. On a regular networked game, the latent lighting from a flashlight means you see a player come around the corner before his lighting catches up with him and you can not see around the corner until your flashlight catches up with you.

[Warsaw]

Except it looked pretty good even at those very high latencies, even with the jumpy light. That's what compensatory algorithms can do for you. And how many gamers play with 500-1000 ms latency rates? Anybody serious enough to care about that little bit of lag is not going to be playing on such an awful connection. Not only that, but the direct lighting isn't what this is really about, it's the diffuse. As in, the stuff that's going to actually use up the local resources at a greater rate when it tries to model where the photons are scattering to instead of simply being told where they are and then mapping it. Finally, this doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a player-controlled item, it can be environmental. The goal is offloading some of the work, not making everything controlled remotely.

So get real, you are pulling it out of context and seem to have a narrow idea of what this stuff can and will be used for. You said it wasn't workable and Nvidia just demonstrated that it is.

[Zeph]

Oh yeah, I'm definitely out of context with a narrow idea of what it can be used for even though I've said it's perfectly fine in a LAN setting where latency is low/non-existant while disastrous for interactive things like games where lag is incredibly noticeable.

You're posting in a FUCKING XBOXONE THREAD about something that would be a disaster if implemented on something the console was using while saying I have no clue what I'm talking about. You've admitted that you have no programming experience on this. Not like I've actually coded things reliant on serialization for games or anything oh wai.....


You're worse than 9mm ever was. He even admitted to never reading things he talks about and you haven't gotten there yet.



If you actually did read what you brag about you'd know that this can indeed work with the xbone. Their goal was to see if the hardware environment could support such a thing and it did. However, they've stated that latency is indeed the weak point in the system and they don't expect it should be implemented for anything beyond a few network hops. Do I really need to go over how many hops are likely to take place along the player's home, local ISP, high tier host, the XBL datacenter, and then the compute farm itself?

Seriously, the whole research project just confirmed that the hardware today has enough bandwidth to be a light farm for 50 or so local clients and remain competitive in quality you'd expect for higher-end PC hardware. This is something that would push light from your PC to your nVidia Shield.

[Btcc22]

And how many gamers play with 500-1000 ms latency rates?

Quite a lot if they try this out with the current state of Internet speeds in most of the world. What you saw in that video was using up to 43Mbps.

[Higuy]

I don't see why this is great. Your streaming a crticial part of the engine from a serverbox over a internet connection, just for ligthing. What good possible uses would this have? Maybe some clearer, sharper graphics, but is that really neccessary nowadays? You're getting latency just for maybe a slightly noticable difference if it was all being done local.

[neuro]

So this here is pretty neat. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Cloud-Light-Voxel-Irradiance-Map-Photons-Rendering,23718.html) Distributed lighting between server and client via the internet. And it uses, wait for it, voxels! This is basically lighting by numbers. Who called it? I called it. Go to hell.

Unfortunately for Xbone, it's running AMD hardware.

except unreal has been using voxel based lighting ever since lightmass.
it's how all dynamic meshes are lit.

[Zeph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbrmAsxJPv4

Stupidest idea ever putting a native wireless receiver on the console.
BRB, going to an MLG LAN and haxxoring the consoles in the middle of matches.

[CabooseJr]

It comes with a sticker, so it's clearly the better console.

[Dwood]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but it would seem that they are using a proprietary connection for the Kinect to XBone. I knew something like that would happen. For shame. :(

Edit: Here, I found a source:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/06/microsoft-kinect-for-xbox-one-will-not-work-on-pcs/

[Warsaw]

The old Kinect had a proprietary connector. The USB adapter was only there because older Xbox 360s didn't have that proprietary connection port, only USB. They don't want people using the new one on Windows like last time, they want them to pay the $400 for the Windows version. Of course, I'd be willing to bet that some will simply splice a USB connector onto the Xbone version.

[Zeph]

Gonna laugh if this is the case, but are the two connectors on the different versions the same?

[=sw=warlord]

Nope, different from what I can tell, at least by dimensions.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/06-14-10kinectirl.jpg

http://brooklynking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/microsoft-xbox-one-back.jpg

[Dwood]

I WAS about to say that the XBOne Kinect was just going to be using something like a firewire connection or Thunderbolt, but I realized that they are using USB 3.0 and there's no point in them mixing the two types (I figure it would be cheaper for them to just use all USB 3.0's if possible).

I'm going with Zeph on this one. I give it a week to a month from release of XBone that someone splices a non-proprietary connection onto the sucker. If I'm wrong? IDK. Let's take bets.

[Btcc22]

Probably end up finding out that it is indeed just a USB connection, again. It's not as if they're going to invent their own standard, surely.

http://www.engsoc.org/~pat/log/xbox/20041002.jpg

Image resize functionality is broken. Oh well.

[ODX]

Are you fucking happy now? Kinect is No Longer Mandatory Because Everyone is a Whiny Bitch (http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-wont-actually-need-kinect-plugged-in-microso-1113142909)

Why this is Bad for Everyone (http://gizmodo.com/the-xbox-one-is-worse-for-everyone-if-kinects-not-mand-1113731041)

"It's simple: As a standard-issue, always-on-and-enabled FEATURE of the Xbox One, Kinect was something that had a hugely better chance (not a guarantee, but a good chance) of being developed for in a meaningful way....But as an optional feature, there's far less incentive for developers to take advantage of everything the new Kinect can do. It's actually a really impressive (http://gizmodo.com/kinect-2-full-video-walkthrough-the-xbox-sees-you-like-509155673) device, and maybe some of that still comes through. There's a good chance it does, actually. It's just much lower than it would have been otherwise."

Pretty much, these cool features that the Xbox One had are now being destroyed (although the always-online was maybe a little too early to have since Wifi isn't that globally stable yet). I don't understand why everyone seems to hate Kinect though, it seems like a really awesome device. Demos and all.

[Btcc22]

Just because you don't need it plugged in doesn't suddenly mean that it isn't being bundled with every console. You can unplug your controllers and drives too but it doesn't mean developers are compelled to make them optional accessories. :ugh:

Besides, I'm yet to be impressed by any Kinect applications and it isn't exactly new by this point.

[=sw=warlord]

because not everyone wants a camera staring at them the entire time they're playing a video game and having said camera decide how much to skewer prices when it comes to renting movies and shows based on how many people are in the room.

[Kornman00]

Just because you don't need it plugged in doesn't suddenly mean that it isn't being bundled with every console. You can unplug your controllers and drives too but it doesn't mean developers are compelled to make them optional accessories. :ugh:

Besides, I'm yet to be impressed by any Kinect applications and it isn't exactly new by this point.
Bit-coin-currency22 pretty much nailed it. If you're going to bitch about people bitching, at least try and hear them out first before...well bitching.

Making it mandatory to even fucking use the Xbox was fucking stupid. If I'm not using the goddamn thing to do anything, why must I have the damn thing plugged in?

The Kinect's connector is also seemingly proprietary. So no hacking it up on the PC (apparently the Xbox version is essentially subsidized, the PC version to come later IIRC will be priced in the hundreds).

In other news, I pondered the idea of switching my preorder of the PS4 to Xbone today while at gamestop (thanks in part to the many 180s they've pulled, the new controller, my disgust with Sony's PSN, and some future upcoming work). Apparently neither system is no longer preorder-able. So yeah, decided to keep my order for the time being.

[ODX]

But why is it so hard to just leave it plugged in, even when not in use? It's not going to do anything, and it'll just help if you want to use any voice commands or recognize entering players. Sure, I guess it's good now that if you break it, you don't have to go and buy a new one necessarily, but if you're smart and place it on a stable surface it shouldn't break in the first place.

[Donut]

Because of this:

because not everyone wants a camera staring at them the entire time they're playing a video game and having said camera decide how much to skewer prices when it comes to renting movies and shows based on how many people are in the room.

Also, you're from the US right ODX? I'm sure you've heard of the whole thing about the NSA assembling a gigantic portfolio of internet usage for every american. I can't think of too many people that would be very excited to add the xbox's kinect camera to that. There's nothing hard about leaving it plugged in. It's the fact that you have (or had) to for the unit to even function. Seems suspicious.

[=sw=warlord]

...Did anyone even mention the kinect breaking?
No? then what does that have to do with the price of cheese?

The bones of contempt lay in A: the kinect is always watching, always listening, B: mandatory, now it's no longer mandatory I no longer have to wonder whether some NSA jerk is making crude photoshop mustaches on video feed taken from the kinect whilst i'm gaming.

[ODX]

The breaking part was one of the only good reasons I can think of for it not being mandatory anymore, so if it does break your console isn't rendered useless.

Oh god, the NSA thing. Don't get me started. All I can say is my personal opinion is that it doesn't freaking matter if someone sees me staring at a TV screen playing games. But that's another thread.

[Kornman00]

Oh god, the NSA thing. Don't get me started. All I can say is my personal opinion is that it doesn't freaking matter if someone sees me staring at a TV screen playing games. But that's another thread.
Good thing it's not called the ODXbox

[PlasbianX]

If your biggest argument against buying the new xbox is the NSA, you might wanna just throw your cellphone away, get rid of your pc, and go hide in a bunker. We all carry phones with front facing cameras, if they wanted to spy, it wouldn't be with your console. Jesus.

[Donut]

So what was the excuse for leaving it always on then? I can't think of any other reason other than the pay-per-person movie pricing, which seems difficult if not impossible to even enforce.

[Ki11a_FTW]

So what was the excuse for leaving it always on then? I can't think of any other reason other than the pay-per-person movie pricing, which seems difficult if not impossible to even enforce.

Just put a picture of an empty living room infront of the camera, then you won't even have to pay for one person

[Donut]

Hence why I said it

...seems difficult if not impossible to even enforce.

At that point, why even bother? Honestly, I don't think Microsoft had some global evil genius plan with making the Kinect always on. It really sounds like they were trying to promote the use of the Kinect by ensuring developers that people would always have one, but like everything else, they went about it the wrong way. They could have just as easily (and much less controversially) said "Hey guys, all Xbox One units come with the Kinect sensor, that way developers can integrate it into their games knowing everybody will have one!" They didn't have to pull a big brother on us.

[Bodzilla]

When microsuck has been implemented as a willing paticpate in the biggest infringement on privacy in our history, as well as providing day 0 exploits to government agency's to exploit diplomatic computers from other nations, i think it's wise to not be indifferent to a fucking camera and microphone in your living room. on at all times.

[=sw=warlord]

If your biggest argument against buying the new xbox is the NSA, you might wanna just throw your cellphone away, get rid of your pc, and go hide in a bunker. We all carry phones with front facing cameras, if they wanted to spy, it wouldn't be with your console. Jesus.
Not everyone has a smart phone, I personally only have my phone on whilst I'm out and about and when I do have the phone with me, it's not normally on anyway because I'm usually busy and don't want people calling me every 5 minutes.
As for PC, it's easier to secure your pc than it is securing a console because you have access to all the controls.

[t3h m00kz]

I keep my network disabled on my phone unless I absolutely need it. 4G is off 99% of the time

[TeeKup]

I still think the Kinect is a stupid gimmick. I played games well enough this long with traditional controllers. I don't need some stupid voice activated camera to do shit for me because I'm too lazy to press a button.

[Dwood]

I don't have things to hide about my life and what-not, I just don't want people snooping on me. Is there anything wrong with privacy in the first place? Some people keep their Xbox's in their bedrooms, and that could be bad to have an Xbone misinterpret you and your wife etc.

[PlasbianX]

I still think the Kinect is a stupid gimmick. I played games well enough this long with traditional controllers. I don't need some stupid voice activated camera to do shit for me because I'm too lazy to press a button.

Im not trying to start a war here, but do you have the same issues with hands free sets in cars? Or with things like Google Voice / Siri on phones? Its the same thing.

[PlasbianX]

I still think the Kinect is a stupid gimmick. I played games well enough this long with traditional controllers. I don't need some stupid voice activated camera to do shit for me because I'm too lazy to press a button.

Im not trying to start a war here, but do you have the same issues with hands free sets in cars? Or with things like Google Voice / Siri on phones? Its the same thing.

[TeeKup]

A car and an xbox are not the same thing Allen. :/

[ODX]

There's plenty of features behind Kinect, one I'm most wondering and looking forward to is the recognition of my roommate picking up a controller, or me being able to speak a command or two when I don't have the controller in my hands.

You're experiences with Kinect are either limited to the shitty one they released for the 360, or even limited further to reading about/watching videos of it. Unfair to make judgemetns really, but that's what Modacity does best I suppose....

[TeeKup]

The only games I know of that received any modicum of recognition of NOT being gimmicky for the Kinect were Child of Eden and Rise of Nightmares. Most of my friends who have the Kinect complain about its inability to pick up half of what they're saying anyway.

I won't judge Kinect 2.0 until it releases, Kinect 1.0 however is a different story. Honestly, Kinect 2.0 might be everything the first release was meant to be, if that happens I'll gladly put my foot in my mouth.

[Donut]

You know ODX, there was a game already that could detect when more players pick up controllers and let them seamlessly jump in at the push of a button. It works a hell of a lot better than a sensor just assuming somebody picking up a controller wants to play and the guy already playing is cool with it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b7/Secret_of_Mana_Box.jpg

[Bodzilla]

Not everyone has a smart phone, I personally only have my phone on whilst I'm out and about and when I do have the phone with me, it's not normally on anyway because I'm usually busy and don't want people calling me every 5 minutes.
As for PC, it's easier to secure your pc than it is securing a console because you have access to all the controls.
Doesn't matter if it's on or not, they can listen to you.

the only way to guarantee it is to pull the battery out.

[=sw=warlord]

Reason the phone is usually off is the battery doesn't hold charge very long.

[Warsaw]

You know ODX, there was a game already that could detect when more players pick up controllers and let them seamlessly jump in at the push of a button. It works a hell of a lot better than a sensor just assuming somebody picking up a controller wants to play and the guy already playing is cool with it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b7/Secret_of_Mana_Box.jpg

Don't forget Lego Starwars! And Borderlands...and I think Battlefront did it as well...

[PlasbianX]

Oh those games automatically sign into their accounts so they can track their achievements and game play time? Neat-o!

[Donut]

Lego Star Wars does, on the PC anyway. My point is that there are much more reliable methods of doing what the Kinect (supposedly) does with controller detection that have been around for 20 years, and do it better.

[Kornman00]

I still think the Kinect is a stupid gimmick. I played games well enough this long with traditional controllers. I don't need some stupid voice activated camera to do shit for me because I'm too lazy to press a button.
A sequel to Halo Wars could greatly benefit from the voice recognition. But that's not really related to Kinect's (unless the device has dedicated resources for processing like it does for imaging).

[PlasbianX]

A sequel to Halo Wars could greatly benefit from the voice recognition. But that's not really related to Kinect's (unless the device has dedicated resources for processing like it does for imaging).

Its best not to argue with him, I learned this on facebook the other night.

There's plenty of ways to use the kinect outside of it being "for lazy people". I really dont think thats an argument you can justify really.

[TeeKup]

EDIT: Nvm I'm not even going to bother. I don't have the energy anymore to get into these debates.

[Cortexian]

Another step in the right direction at least.

Still won't be buying any of these new-fangled consoles. I'm sure my $5,500 PC will keep me satisifed, especially once I duct tape that fleshlight to its optical drive and make an eject/close drive macro.

I mean, what?!

[Kornman00]

The only thing you'll be missing is next-gen Destiny.

[Cortexian]

You mean re-skinned Halo?

[Kornman00]

No no, I mean Destiny

[ODX]

Sigh, let's just wait a few years to see if Kinect 2.0 really is pointless like you all seem to judge it as. Then you can call me stupid and dumb for thinking it's neat and has a ton of potential yet to be seen.

(See, I said in a few years because this site will probably be dead by then and I won't hear it ;D)

[Btcc22]

But if it is then we could be having the same conversation about Kinect 3.

[PlasbianX]

Sigh, let's just wait a few years to see if Kinect 2.0 really is pointless like you all seem to judge it as. Then you can call me stupid and dumb for thinking it's neat and has a ton of potential yet to be seen.

(See, I said in a few years because this site will probably be dead by then and I won't hear it ;D)

Nah, cause Teekup will still hunt you down on facebook and bitch to you about your opinion. (Cause it happened)

I do feel its too early to judge though, i have a feeling devs will find a much better use for it than they have in the past.

[Amit]

Why not use the Kinect 2.0 to its fullest potential?: Spying on people.

[TeeKup]

Holy hell Allen, drop it already.

[Ki11a_FTW]

I'll probably end up getting the xbone, I would like to try out destiny and the new Halo.

[ODX]

Oh hey look, Kinect isn't useless and is already showing some cool potential. Sidenote, this game itself is like Little Big Planet on steroids.

Project Fucking Spark (http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/20/microsoft-says-project-spark-beta-launching-in-october/)

"Microsoft just flaunted some of Project Spark (http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/10/project-spark-game-builder/)'s gaming powers at Gamescom 2013 in Cologne: motion and voice capture...Microsoft's Team Dakota group showed how to use facial capture, body motion capture and voice and sound to create animations, dialogue, cut scenes and more."

See the problem you're all having with Kinect is you're thinking it's gimmicky as you're imagining it being paired with reality simulator/photorealism/"hardcore" games, something it doesn't quite fit in with. Hopefully seeing it with a real game, something creative and genuinely fun, I pray you all can see that it does have a ton of potential. Definitely picking this game up whenever I buy an Xbox One.

[Amit]

See the problem you're all having with Kinect is you're thinking it's gimmicky as you're imagining it being paired with reality simulator/photorealism/"hardcore" games, something it doesn't quite fit in with.

The problem I have with Kinect is exactly that. Hardcore games are what are primarily played on consoles and here you have Microsoft shoving something that hardcore games don't really take advantage of down your throat. You must use it or you can't run our console. The hell kind of mindset is that? Not only does it drive the price of the console up, it's still just a gimmick because that's the type of games that are developed for it: gimmick games. Project Spark is pretty interesting, but the whole idea of it is a gimmick: build your own games purely through Kinect 2.0.

[ODX]

Hardcore games are what are primarily played on consoles...Oh christ just stop. That's not the damn point at all, consoles are not built for just hardcore games even if that's what might appear to be played most. They are built for GAMES, aka, entertainment and fun. Microsoft notes this and is moving forward with the general gameplay experience by researching and experimenting further with Kinect.

You know game input won't just be done by a controller forever, right? We have to start somewhere, and I god damn applaud Microsoft for their efforts. My opinion still stands that Kinect is pretty cool and has tons of potential, Amit you're just being a little too stubborn to see it.


Project Spark is pretty interesting, but the whole idea of it is a gimmick: build your own games purely through Kinect 2.0.The whole idea of it is a gimmick? How does that make any goddamn sense, it's a GAME, not a reality simulator, something that only Nintendo would usually make. It looks pretty damn awesome, and there's only so little we've seen so far. It's not all about using Kinect, you probably don't even have to use Kinect in the game at all. But seriously, how is it a gimmick? Was Little Big Planet a gimmick because it was just building levels? Because that's the impression I'm getting from you . (and we all know LBP was fucking awesome)

[ThePlague]

I can understand about the not being controlled with a controller for the future, but with kinect it's completely different. The future is in things like the oculus rift, which actually immerses you into the game. Up next would be controls based on sensory outputs, such as your mind. Yeah sure, the kinect can be included to handle things like your movement and shit like that, but if anything it will be in controls built into gloves, or weapon controllers. Something to further immerse you into the game. Like that walking pad thing that you strapped into and you could actually walk with it in the game, shit like that.

[kid908]

I can understand about the not being controlled with a controller for the future, but with kinect it's completely different. The future is in things like the oculus rift, which actually immerses you into the game. Up next would be controls based on sensory outputs, such as your mind. Yeah sure, the kinect can be included to handle things like your movement and shit like that, but if anything it will be in controls built into gloves, or weapon controllers. Something to further immerse you into the game. Like that walking pad thing that you strapped into and you could actually walk with it in the game, shit like that.
Last I checked, The Omni uses the kinect. the strap platform has no sensory. It's just solid for you to walk.

[Zeph]

Last I checked, The Omni uses the kinect. the strap platform has no sensory. It's just solid for you to walk.
Yeah, the kinect was used solely for lower body skeletal input to determine the equivalence of a joystick on a controller.
The strap was to keep people trying it from falling over and breaking the rig (something that happens when people lose physical orientation of their body in a headset).

[Donut]

I don't think anybody is arguing that the Kinect is useless. It seems to be just that people don't want to be forced to either use a Kinect or not be able to run their console at all. There's a couple good reasons for this:

1) It's another thing you need to stick on top of your TV setup, which can cause problems with some setups (e.g. flat screens)
2) It's an always-on camera and microphone sitting in your living room watching you game. It's pretty reasonable for people to be wary of that whether you personally are or not.
3) Microsoft's statement was that they wanted the Kinect to be necessary to game developers could assume the Kinect will be on every platform, and not have to worry about alienating potential customers due to hardware restrictions. This alone is an issue because now developers are inclined to do all sorts of unnecessary things with the Kinect.

All 3 of those things would be issues for me. I get that the target audience of the Xbox One wasn't just the hardcore demographic, and that a lot of people would love more "hands-free" Kinect games. I'm super excited to see what kind of new game play mechanics arise from the inclusion of the Kinect with every system. I just don't want to see it get involved in titles that it shouldn't be involved in, such as waving your hands to reload a gun or something. #3 is still sort of, kind of an issue since the Kinect is still included with the Xbox One, but I'd assume developers would take note of the public's preference to have it be optional and develop accordingly (i.e. be less inclined to needlessly use the Kinect).


tl;dr I want to see what new games and game play arises with the Kinect. I just don't want it ruining titles that don't need it, and I want the option to disable it if I'm not using it (which I already have). I think the majority of the people are arguing something similar.

[PlasbianX]

They've said you don't need kinect on at all times. I don't see why people are arguing that. I do feel people are arguing that kinect is useless though by making the argument that its going to be used for gimmicks.

[Donut]

Of course it will be used for gimmicks. Every other thing like that always is. Star Wars Kinect, for example. Same deal with the Wiimote. I haven't seem much meaningful gameplay innovation with that. Super Monkey Ball was cool as fuck with motion controls, but you could just as easily (and more precisely) control that with an analogue stick. It's the crazy, outside-the-box approaches to using the new technologies that I'm interested in. Like the MIT team that strapped a Kinect on a robot and had it generate 3d images of the room it was in.

The problem is that the majority of developers try to use the "traditional" approaches to game design to work with the new sensors, and of course that's not going to work well, because traditional approaches are designed around controllers with buttons. To properly utilize the Kinect, developers need to revolutionize how they design games. The problem is that a lot of publishers won't be willing to take a risk on a big, new IP designed around the Kinect, so they'll compromise by pushing the Kinect on an established IP. The problem there is that the IP has an established play style designed around the controller with buttons. Of course the Kinect will feel like a gimmick there. That's why opening the console to indie development is so important, because indie developers have a lot more room to experiment.

What I'm saying (and what I think most other people are trying to say) is that I don't want to see a new Banjo Kazooie game with a Kinect worked in. I want to see a new Banjo Kazooie with the traditional control it was designed around, and then I want to see a totally new idea that was build from the ground up around the Kinect.

[Amit]

Oh christ just stop. That's not the damn point at all, consoles are not built for just hardcore games even if that's what might appear to be played most. They are built for GAMES, aka, entertainment and fun. Microsoft notes this and is moving forward with the general gameplay experience by researching and experimenting further with Kinect.

I know there's no true way to know exactly what is the most played game on consoles, but in terms of online play, there is. According to Major Nelson and Microsoft (http://majornelson.com/2013/07/24/live-activity-for-week-of-july-15/), for the week of July 24th, 2013, the following were the most played games on XBOX LIVE:


BlOps 2
Minecraft
FIFA 13
MW3
NBA 2K13
GTA4
ACII
Halo 4
BF3
BlOps
Skyrim
MW2
BL2
Reach
GoW3
NCAA Football 14
Spartacus Legends
ACIII
Forza 4
Madden 13


16/20 games on that list can be considered "hardcore" games. Most of those games (or a game in their series) are also the best selling X360 games so far. And for over a year it's been those same games that have been top of the list.

Obviously, consoles aren't created just for those game alone, but those games are primarily what is played on the X360. Now whether you want to play the Kinect games or not, you have to make a choice. That choice is either to spend money on something that you know you will not use or to not purchase the XBOX at all. That's not really what you want to force on your consumers. But, I'm guessing that if Microsoft didn't make this decision, then the Kinect 2.0 wouldn't sell well enough. This way there's a 100% sales success rate for a decently expensive piece of non-essential hardware.


You know game input won't just be done by a controller forever, right? We have to start somewhere, and I god damn applaud Microsoft for their efforts. My opinion still stands that Kinect is pretty cool and has tons of potential, Amit you're just being a little too stubborn to see it.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Kinect doesn't have any potential. Technologically, it's an impressive piece of hardware, but it's optimal match is not on the closed platform of the console. I'm not so delusional to think that we'll be using M/Kb and gamepads exclusively forever, but I think that the applications for Kinect on XBOX is limited. The Kinect 2.0 is used in the Virtuix Omni (Oculus Rift + low-friction foot platform + Kinect 2.0) for motion tracking and so far it's doing a damn great job. You make it sound as though Kinect 2.0 is the only thing reaching out to new ways of gaming when there actually working prototypes of many other awesome peripherals that actually do more for the game than Kinect. That's not to say that the tracking is inferior for some bullshit reason on the XBOX, but the potential for more advanced and innovative gaming is not possible on the XBOX because the software is not open the way it is on PC.

Your opinion stands, yes, as your own opinion. I'm not suppressing your right to that.


The whole idea of it is a gimmick? How does that make any goddamn sense, it's a GAME, not a reality simulator, something that only Nintendo would usually make. It looks pretty damn awesome, and there's only so little we've seen so far. It's not all about using Kinect, you probably don't even have to use Kinect in the game at all. But seriously, how is it a gimmick? Was Little Big Planet a gimmick because it was just building levels? Because that's the impression I'm getting from you . (and we all know LBP was fucking awesome)

Keyword: idea. The way Microsoft is showcasing Project Spark is like a gimmick. At least, that is the impression I have gotten with it, even if the game itself isn't a gimmick. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to expect a "reality simulator" as you put it. That's simply not possible due to a whole host of reasons. What sets LBP apart from Project Spark from the marketing perspective is that the main push of the game wasn't for it to be created using tools other than the controller. So far Kinect on the X360 has been used as a gimmick tool. While I believe that Kinect 2.0 can enhance Project Spark, I think Microsoft Studios is marketing the game a bit to much to push the Kinect 2.0. It's to the point where it becomes a gimmick.

I think you need to take a step back and stop taking my skepticism of Kinect 2.0's uses on the XBOX personally.

[Donut]

relevant:
7vq-1TiXi3g

Guy said he coded this entirely in C# using the Kinect SDK. Pretty cool stuff here.

[ODX]

:cop::cop::airquote::words::words::words::slap::ne ckbeard::ohdear:

Alright then, I see the errors of my ways and raise you one win/I understand so much better now as opposed to everything you said before which had me confused and angrified. Thank you for the super clarification really, I just thought Kinect was much better now and Modacity always seems to like bashing things so I tried to stand up for it. Oh well, I gotcha now.

[Kornman00]

MS doesn't want their xbone employees having the inferior black edition, so they're giving them some white ones to power their gaming http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/26/4661076/white-xbox-one-microsoft-employees

:mech2:

[Warsaw]

I saw that on Kotaku, and I must say that the white versions of both the Xbone and the PS4 look way more :nigel: than their coloured counterparts.

[Kornman00]

From the devs of Titan Fall http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

[ODX]

I feel like I posted that back when he actually had (June), but that looks a little different from the one I remember posting. Oh well.

In other news: Xbox One will support 8 simultaneous controllers, PS4 only 4 (http://www.examiner.com/article/two-days-after-xbox-oneplaystation) (which is odd because they apparently had 7 for the PS3).
Xbox One will also support 16 Smartglass devices (http://www.vg247.com/2013/09/06/xbox-one-smartglass-changes-and-mainstays-outlined/comment-page-1/), and here's some info on the updated SmartGlass (http://news.xbox.com/2013/09/ent-xbox-one-smartglass) itself

24 CONTROLLERS YEAH

[Btcc22]

The ability to have eight controllers connected at once will probably be useful for perhaps sixteen people on the entire planet until they realise the console can't keep up with eight viewports.

[Dwood]

^^ Basically - Modern gaming PC's can often have problems running the Oculus Rift at full tilt, which is 2 separately rendered screens in stereoscopic 3d at less than optimal resolution.

The XBone is going to have many problems having 8 viewports, let alone six. /PCGaming Superiority

[Patrickssj6]

Who says you need 8 viewports if you have 8 controllers :downs: /imaginesupersmahbroswith8ppl

[Kornman00]

Who says you need 8 viewports if you have 8 controllers :downs: /imaginesupersmahbroswith8ppl
Yeah, party and sports games will benefit from this. I suppose music games could make use of it too.

Think of it, you're at a party at someone's house and they have a turn-based game (eg, something like weakest link or such). What's that? You have more than four people who want to play it? But just have a PS4? Oh well. Oh hey, the neighbor has a Xbone, let's go crash his place!

[Btcc22]

If it's a turn-based game, pass the controller around. :smug:

[Kornman00]

But that would cause Kinect to blow a gasket

[Dwood]

But that would cause Kinect to blow a gasket
http://kornnersoftware.com/images/boner.png

[t3h m00kz]

http://sadpanda.us/images/1832701-0H0XR3E.png

[Amit]

From the devs of Titan Fall http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

So IW founders just debunked IWNet being a "superior" alternative to dedicated servers.

[Limited]

Photo I took
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42037955/xboxone.jpg

So yeah, its massive

[Zeph]

Yeah, they were terrified of heat issues so bad they even underclocked the SoC.

[Kornman00]

Well, they wanted to call it the Xbox One, and so they had to make it the same size as the real Xbox1.

[ODX]

That's honestly a shitty picture. Looks like it's covered in a big plastic safe thingy so people can't steal it, etc etc whatever.

If you look, the button on the right (power button) is about the midway point for its height:
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/5/8/2/5/9/7/eurogamer-pbyq6s.jpg
And the plughole (wat) on the left there is about the bottom. I have no idea all the shit it's on but that's a bad picture.
In reality it's moreso the size of the second-iteration Xbox 360, maybe even the first. Not too different really, aside from a more squared design.

Edit: Fixed image

[PlasbianX]

That's honestly a shitty picture. Looks like it's covered in a big plastic safe thingy so people can't steal it, etc etc whatever.

If you look, the button on the right (power button) is about the midway point for its height:
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/5/8/2/5/9/7/eurogamer-pbyq6s.jpg
And the plughole (wat) on the left there is about the bottom. I have no idea all the shit it's on but that's a bad picture.
In reality it's moreso the size of the second-iteration Xbox 360, maybe even the first. Not too different really, aside from a more squared design.

Looks to me like they just have a plastic cover to make sure you dont touch any of the buttons on the front. Rest of the console is as tall as the plastic.

[ODX]

Take a look at my picture again, and then at the one posted. Unless Microsoft has been hiding something in all of their press shots, as well as oh I don't know, the official unboxing of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbrmAsxJPv4

I don't know why the height of it looks so damn skewed in that picture of the guy playing, but it's definitely not THAT huge.

[Warsaw]

There's definitely something underneath the console, lifting it up, evidenced by that apparent gap right above the player's right hand.

[Limited]

From the side, it was one unit, that looked like it was on a little platform that was in cased in the plastic box. They probably use that to allow it to be bolted to the table top its on.

That said, its still a big box, PS4 is extremely slim compared to it. Its about twice the height of the camera-y bit of the Kinect sensor (so the boxy bit, not including stand).

I still cant decide what console to get, I cant stand the PS3 controllers, the sticks and the triggers annoy me SO much and I find it hard to play.

Heres a pic I found online showing the plastic case a bit better
http://i.imgur.com/Y9yvj4Z.jpg

[Zeph]

So, Microsoft has placed an embargo on reviews for the console and its games until after its launch (seems that crossplatform titles have an embargo for 12 hours after their midnight release for the ps4).
Meanwhile, several game journalists are upset that they can't talk about it while alluding to horrible things.

If you've got a pre-order for the console, hold off on opening it until these things show up in the news in case you want to get your money back.

https://twitter.com/HenroidT/status/393800773080862720
https://twitter.com/aegies/status/393947262960693248
https://twitter.com/AdamSessler/status/393945548186611712
https://twitter.com/aegies/status/393788500379594752

It could entirely be related to CoD:Ghosts being 720p, but that in itself is a bad thing for a 'next-gen' console.
I'm going to guess that the DDR3 doesn't have enough bandwidth to feed that super fast block of memory they've got for the frame buffer in the current meta of rendering.

edit: former journalist to the rescue
http://i7.minus.com/iIsZoRiIj4xQD.png
http://i.imgur.com/DxWwSmW.png

So yeah, it's gotta be the different architecture. It'll be amazing when devs can learn to use the small super fast RAM, but until then xbone is an inferior experience.

[Warsaw]

It sounds like the reverse of this past generation, where Microsoft had the simpler architecture and Sony was more complex. In true Microsoft fashion, it appears they didn't learn from that experience. They tried to pinch pennies over time with the new Xbox and are now suffering for it.

[Kornman00]

Invitation...denied (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1mfIg1I3zE).

[Dwood]

/steamOS

[ODX]

Invitation...denied (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1mfIg1I3zE).Hey, you may have denied the invitation but you've gotta admit the invitation was kinda cool was it not?

I dunno, I liked the commercial. Reminds me of the banned Xbox commercial with everyone pretending to shoot each other. Although it wasn't that cool, it still was neat.

[TeeKup]

That was rather charming actually.

[Kornman00]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, the commercial was cool, but...invitation denied.

[Kornman00]

Xbox.com's new face lift can get faced off and into the garbage

[BobtheGreatII]

All this hate from you Korn is just making me want to get one all that much more.

[Bodzilla]

dont throw your life away son.

[TVTyrant]

All this hate from you Korn is just making me want to get one all that much more.
Contrarian more

[Zeph]

So, Microsoft has placed an embargo on reviews for the console and its games until after its launch (seems that crossplatform titles have an embargo for 12 hours after their midnight release for the ps4).
Meanwhile, several game journalists are upset that they can't talk about it while alluding to horrible things.

If you've got a pre-order for the console, hold off on opening it until these things show up in the news in case you want to get your money back.

https://twitter.com/HenroidT/status/393800773080862720
https://twitter.com/aegies/status/393947262960693248
https://twitter.com/AdamSessler/status/393945548186611712
https://twitter.com/aegies/status/393788500379594752

It could entirely be related to CoD:Ghosts being 720p, but that in itself is a bad thing for a 'next-gen' console.
I'm going to guess that the DDR3 doesn't have enough bandwidth to feed that super fast block of memory they've got for the frame buffer in the current meta of rendering.

edit: former journalist to the rescue
http://i7.minus.com/iIsZoRiIj4xQD.png
http://i.imgur.com/DxWwSmW.png

So yeah, it's gotta be the different architecture. It'll be amazing when devs can learn to use the small super fast RAM, but until then xbone is an inferior experience.

Don't know if anyone is keeping up with this, but it seems that this is more referencing core network problems to the XBL platform. The API for networking on the xbone is different than the 360 due to the hypervisor and has been called by devs absolutely horrible. Shit resolution problems just add onto that and make these problems worse. It's likely that xbone versions of multiplatform games are going to get shit scores accordingly and that's why Microsoft is forcing an embargo till after midnight releases so they can still collect as much money as possible.

I think it was GAF I read this, but these network problems have supposedly been there from the start and have yet to be resolved. It's been wreaking havoc on titles trying to pass platform QA for RTM. I haven't payed much attention to the mechanics of this game, but perhaps this is what actually caused Watch Dogs to be delayed?

[Kornman00]

Doubtful, since it's suppose to release on multiple platforms and be one of boobiesoft's breadmakers. If anything, they would have just delayed the xbone's release.