Bridge CE/Scythopolis Legal Problems

[Rob Oplawar]

Man, it's always hard to tell where to put these Bridge CE threads.

Ok, so here's the legal crap MS has finally clarified:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/developer/rules.htm
I appreciate that it is worded well and is polite and concise, but it still means a headache for me any way you look at it.

Three rules about the usage are what's getting me:

You can’t reverse engineer our games to access the assets or otherwise do things that the games don’t normally permit in order to create your Items.
Because I intend to use an "unlocked" version of the H2EK, as well as various tools used for extracting the aforementioned assets.

You can’t use the soundtracks or audio effects from the original game. We often license those from third parties and don’t have the rights to pass them on to you.
Not quite so bad because there is other music out there, and I do know a very talented band that's perfectly willing to let me use their music, but I had hoped to toss in some singing monks somewhere.

And here's my biggest problem with the rules:

You can’t add to the game universe or expand on the story told in the game with “lost chapters” or back story or anything like that.
First off, that makes most if not all of the fan fiction on HBO an infringement since short stories fall under the ever so broad category of "Items". So what am I to do with Scythopolis? Minor storyline spoiler to explain where I'm coming from:
Scythopolis is the capitol of the Decapolis, a collection of ten ancient cities, of which one of them is Damascus. If you'll remember the Damascus facility in the Halo novels... all I'll give you is that it has to do with early contact with the Covenant and the origins of Mjolnir.Clearly that falls into their broad category of "expand the story told in the game."

So what am I to do? Well, I'll discuss it with you guys a bit first, but I think I'm going to try to get in contact with somebody in Bungie (I know, it's a bold statement) because I'd much rather talk to someone who actually has something to do with the epic win that I love rather than some M$ legal representative.

[Ki11a_FTW]

meh...the only closest person i think you would be able to contact is, Nitro, or bum has knife :-/

[Kalub]

Just do what your going to do, Halo CE has been doing all of those for ages.

[Con]

You can’t add to the game universe or expand on the story told in the game with “lost chapters” or back story or anything like that.I really think they're stepping over the line in this one; I don't understand how that could be a potential problem. I say continue with Bridge, just keep it low down. It would be a shame if you had to stop after all that effort you've put into this so far. I suppose there's always MP, but it's just not the same :(

EDIT: well, technically, you're not *adding* to the game universe, since this whole bridge thing could have happened anyway ;) And it's not expanding on the story told in the game. Your map is by no means part of the original campaign.

[Rob Oplawar]

I decided to use the BUngie.net forums to try to get someone's attention and see if I can clear up the issues. Pain followed.
I hate things that suck. Oh my god do I ever hate things that suck- especially big important very widely used systems with huge development teams and lots of people whose %&@#ING JOBS it is to make sure they do not suck. I worked on a Java webapp this summer, and I was an intern, and I was one of 3 people working on it, and it sucks a whole lot less than the #&$%ing .net passport system as it interfaces with Bungie.net. Because I, the clueless user, which the system is designed for, could not figure out what the hell they wanted me to do or how to do it, I did it wrong and now my B.Net account, my .net passport account, and my associated gamertag are irretrievably lost. I can create another account, but I'd have to make a new email address and I'd be unable to link my gamertag. A word to web designers: it is your FUCKING JOB to design your system in such a way that this doesn't happen!
Well, I'm disillusioned with trying to use Bungie.net right now, so I'll do it another time.

I'm well aware that a whole lot of machinima and mods and short stories have already broken these rules, but now that they're spelled out, they probably will be more enforced. I aspire for Scythopolis to be a popular Halo 2 custom single player map, which means if I'm at all successful some legal rep will eventually notice it, and I don't want to receive an e-mail commanding me to cease and desist work on it or take down all public downloads for it, because that would suck. I'd rather address the issue before it becomes an issue.

Edit: Hey ghost, you should add rant tags, just so people are encouraged to enclose rants and protect the unsuspecting from them ;)

[Kornman00]

Good luck getting people to use the rant tags.

[leorimolo]

I say do it, and if you get some sort of llegal problems you remove it from the intrenets...

[SMASH]

I say do it, and if you get some sort of llegal problems you remove it from the intrenets...

No, you spread it on P2P like Limewire or as a torrent. Psh... dumb Microsoft.

[Limited]

When it means "Items" does that just mean maps? It doesnt mean videos, programs (like 3rd person) and those types of things correct?

If it does mean those, that kind of sucks because if you record halo your likely to hear the halo sounds, for me I dont because I have integrated soundcard so it sounds REALLY rough but others do.

you could "forget" you saw that webpage >_>

[Siliconmaster]

If it does mean those, that kind of sucks because if you record halo your likely to hear the halo sounds, for me I dont because I have integrated soundcard so it sounds REALLY rough but others do.

In fact, would that not mean that any machinima would be illegal, since they all use the sounds? I say someone needs to find a clarification, or contact M$. Not sure how to though, or I'd do it myself...

[Agent ME]

Those rules are to vague and overstep too many boundaries - nearly all mods from h1 and h2xbox seem to break those rules, along with about all machinimas.

If they don't enforce those rules with those, I don't think they're going to take much notice of someone making a map in h2vista with some hacked tools. Heck, if the map was successful and didn't somehow break H2v or its Live implementation I could only see it bring good results and maybe Bungie/HiredGun/whoever-else-worked-on-h2v would expand on the h2ek so we didn't have to hack to do what you say.


PS: What is Bridge CE and Scythopolis?

PPS: Is the hacked H2ek ever going to be released, or is everything learned from it going to be kept private for another year to be put into Prometheus? Heck, I bet they're going to delay Prometheus for another year to add Halo3 support once that comes out... :eyesroll:

[Rob Oplawar]

Bridge CE is the project working title- Scythopolis is the actual name of the map, but it took me a long time to finally decide on that name, so most everybody knows it as Bridge CE.

Come to think of it, I've encountered this in the past although the intention wasn't spelled out quite so clearly, but that legal crap is so vague I'm still not gonna buy it. I'm gonna continue work on my map as usual, and then I'm going to release it, and if they're gonna bitch about it then I guess we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Lol I made a pun.

Edit: hey korn and ghost and everybody, you're gonna help me out on this one, right? Help out an old friend acquaintance random guy on teh forums? I don't think the project will survive waiting for Prom...

[kenney001]

So basically they are wanting us to make stuff that has no earthly connection with halo, with their halo engine? Technically everything we have made with the exception of a few have used their sounds and "add to the game universe".

My opinion: just screw that and continue what you were doing. I can't honestly say that they are going to come down on you for making your own single player that has no bold and direct ties to their campaign's storyline.

why the hell does microsoft have to own bungie.......

"You can’t grant anyone the right to build on your creations."
So basically i cant ask say masterz, to complete one of his non-released maps for the pubilc? (just as an example)...

[xhedgehogx]

As if anyones going to follow those rules.

[[EJ] Bean]

I was under the understanding the rules only applied to machinima, so you can make the maps, play them, distribute them, and so on, you just cant record anything from ingame.

If anyone needs a morale boost: Dennis's Response (http://hcec.halomaps.org/news.cfm?nid=323)

[Zeph]

Use CE and you'll be fine.

[Rob Oplawar]

^ Yeah, I always have that to fall back on, but there are so many technical improvements in Halo 2 that I want to take advantage of- including Havoc. Certain parts of the map will... require much less by hand animation if I can just let Havoc take care of debris.

[FRain]

Wow, so no more halo videos. Fuck that, I'm pissed, let's go blow up microsoft.

Also: Forget that halo novel I was going to write and make available free online. :fail:

[Bastinka]

You can write novels?

Anyway, if you're ever going to accomplish something.. You might wanna go down to walmart and buy..
http://www.inventionconnection.com/BOOTHS/GRAPHICS/359z.jpg

[Flyboy]

Halo machinima isn't terminated and never will be. Anyone who's hardcore about making movies won't let microsoft get in the way. So expect to see many more movies, including mine soon.

As a side note, I bet you microsoft is going to give passes to all the big Machinima groups like Rooster Teeth and Edgeworks, and leave all the little guys under their legal ass kicking boot.

[Snaver]

Bungie and MS seem to be going in opposite directions. With the introduction of the Forge map editor and completely customizable gametypes in Halo3 that are aimed at the machinima groups, then MS comes out with these regulations that are extremely vague for MS standards, usually these kind of things are contained in 100+page documents written by some third party lawyer's hired by MS.

[et_cg]

Well, technically they are designed in long drawn-out documents of large sizes, such as 100 pages. (That's to make sure that they cover every loop-hole possible) Then a techie there at Microsoft sits down with the lawyer who went through all the pain of researching books, and figuring ways to limit people who use their IP, they ask them, "Okay; so what's all this mean?" And through all of that, they get a decently sized internet page that states it nicely, before you get the hammer laid down on your head in the mail. (E-mail, or snail mail) After that, they request to see you in court.

Of course, after going through all the trouble of writing such documents all they have to do is refer to it in their license agreement, with the knowledge that a user must go over all terms before they agree. So in other words, you agree to their terms no matter how you obtain their software/IP.

[CrippieBoy]

Those rules are to vague and overstep too many boundaries - nearly all mods from h1 and h2xbox seem to break those rules, along with about all machinimas.

If they don't enforce those rules with those, I don't think they're going to take much notice of someone making a map in h2vista with some hacked tools. Heck, if the map was successful and didn't somehow break H2v or its Live implementation I could only see it bring good results and maybe Bungie/HiredGun/whoever-else-worked-on-h2v would expand on the h2ek so we didn't have to hack to do what you say.


grandfather clause, i believe its called.

as long as the "item" was produced, or bieng produced, before the law was stated then its still legal, and they cant sue you... and i think we all can say bridge ce was in development way before this came out!

and besides, i dont remember agree-ing to this in the terms and conditions... so i dont think they can legally tack on new laws when they see fit... it kinda feels unconstitutional.

[[EJ] Bean]

I wonder if Freedom of the press could be stretched to fit this situation. We have a right as storytellers to tell a story no matter what the medium of communication is? Sounds good to me.

[Xegrot]

You guys shouldn't be worrying about this bussiness so much. "Oh no, I'm 15 years old, and I wanna make an awesome movie, but Microsoft wants to sue me for using sound effects from a Third Party." Guess who that third party would be?

Bungie.

Have they told us we can't use those sound effects? No.

And also, Microsoft can't sue a large number of the machinima makers cause a LOT of them are under the age of 18.

Oh yeah, a Micro$oft lawyer is going to sue me... for making a film with THEIR products... for $15,000,000. I don't think so. So you know what?

I'm going to continue creating machinima with my group, and I'm not going to let corporate law get in my way. Besides all you need to do is insert that fancy quote into your credits and not sell your video (along with putting it on the web anonymously, just in case) and BAM, you're set, and providing the community with entertainment.

Good night.

[jngrow]

uh, ignore it? Like MS has time to check your stuff unless it gets REALLY popular.

[Apoc4lypse]

uh, ignore it? Like MS has time to check your stuff unless it gets REALLY popular.

u mean like halogen :X

those ****'s they took halogen :mad:

That mod was looking so sexay.... such a shame m$ had to come along and ruin it all...

I hope to hell nothing like that happens here, also I'm still waitin and hoping that h2v will be availible on XP in the future lol, I wont be getting vista anytime soon I aint got the money for the upgrades right now, plus I'd rather buy a new pc when I do get vista, this things getting old, from 2003 :D