Curious about H2V's custom-map aspect...

[stunt_man]

Before Halo 2 Vista came out, I was really hyped about how we would be playing well-made, great custom maps. Now that it's released, there's a surprisingly low number of custom content. Is this because of the low playerbase? Or the shittiness of the EK?

Or is it because it's taking a real long time to complete a work, and there's actually tons of projects in the works?

I'd just like to clear it up, I'm not trying to pry. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is wondering why we have less than 5 decent maps, and they don't even get played :(

[Kornman00]

Its because the stock EK doesn't allow much room for "custom" as you might expect from HaloCE. People can't do custom models or w/e. Mostly just related to custom maps (the actual geometry of the map)


cheese whiz and fruit cake :downs:

[Lateksi]

The mapmaking tool itself is pretty simple and designed for starters, what I've been told. The problem is that if you want your own custiom content in the map, lets say like a tree you made yourself, you need a thirdparty 3d modelling program. They cost alot. Someone explain this better, my english is not to good.

Lol Korny was faster, explained it already.

[stunt_man]

That's not quite what I mean.

Why are there hardly any user-created maps?

Maybe the community needs a push. Perhaps when a high-quality map comes out they'll get that push... Thoughts?

[Vicky]

I won't release any because the server-download map feature is crappy. I've already tried hosting a custom map but some people don't want to wait before the download completes. So people leave, others come in and start the download and others have to wait again and again... it takes ages for a custom-map game to start. An alternate download url would solve this, when a player joins a custom-map game he gets the map from some other site/page/server while everyone already playing the map don't have to wait for joining players.

And of course the EK crappyness :P

[Kornman00]

You know, I had a well thought out, powerful and informative post all readied up, but h2vnet was taking FOREVER to load so I just copied my quick reply and clicked the forums to see if the post took. All in the mix of that, I saw I got an email, saw it was a friend posting on a social network of which i have a profile on, then continued to copy something in there, overwriting the only copy of my insightful post.

So here is the shortened, half-assed version: People can't express their ideas and creativity as much as they would like with h2v, but can with others that have REAL editing kits. So, they move along in life, or in some cases, move back (to haloce).


Nothing in h2v to feed the drive of today's modders, especially after what all haloce has provided.

[Tweek]

well, i think the fact that barely anyone even HAS the game has something to do with it.

i've got some great maps lying around, i just cant make em for a game i don't own. and i'm not even planning on getting h2v either, simple because i'm not planning on getting vista. if it were possible to play on XP, i'd released like 4 maps already, and i'm more than guessing, so would ALOT of other people have done.

and even if i did make it for h2v, i'd be stuck using bungie's content, there's no option to add anything special, no aweosme gameplay elements with interaction, no cool vehicles. no great weapons. theres nothing to experiment with.

and lol even if i made a map for h2v, i'd be able to scream WOW, HALF THE PEOPLE ONLINE ARE PLAYING MY MAP! and you'd still feel bad about it hahaha

come to think of it. there's really NO REASON AT ALL to go trough the effort of making a map for h2v, exept for boredom.
it's almost like they did all thats possible to have people NOT make maps for the game.
you can't even TEST YOUR OWN MAP!
you need a 2nd gold account to do that. i mean what the fuck is up with that.

~now now there tweek, lets not get nasty. Thems fightin' words ;p~

fuck h2v up it's bloated and ripped-open ass, because nobody gives a fuck about the piece of crap that it is.

[Stealth]

That's not quite what I mean.

Why are there hardly any user-created maps?

Maybe the community needs a push. Perhaps when a high-quality map comes out they'll get that push... Thoughts?
What Korn said is true, cause of how locked down the H2EK it's causing to be a pain to do some of the things, that and there are Custom maps out there, most people just don't play them because they suck, look bad, or is a pain in the ass to win because the other team/person as a turret at the highest point of the map so who ever has it, has full contul of the map and the game.

[Kornman00]

so who ever has it, has full contul of the map and the game.
they say who ever controls halo, controls the fate of the univ- o wait, wrong thread :downs:

[Stealth]

+rep for that shit, when I can, that was funny.

[stunt_man]

Tweek, you seem to really have your mind made up for someone who doesn't have the game. Now, that's not to say that most of what you said is true, but you're missing something.

People do play the game. People want custom maps. Custom maps add life to the same old rotation. What you're saying is that custom maps are pointless, just because you can't input your own custom models. Well, eventually, that will likely be possible.

What did we do with Halo CE? We made do with what we had. And look what it became! Sure, the game's pretty much dried up and dead now, but at its prime, I can say that is the best game I ever played. The point is, we used what we had, bitched and moaned about it for years, but the custom stuff still came out on top.

You say there's no one playing the game? I haven't been on CE in like a week, but I'm 99% positive there are more people playing H2V than CE.

If everyone had a mind like yours, who would've made the maps that made Halo CE so great? When CE was released, it was little more than Halo 2 Vista is. The only thing is that the complaints then were about documentation (because no one knew how to use the materials).
But they quickly learned, and top-notch stuff was released.

One more thing: who said a map needs custom scenery to be good? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing maps with Bungie's stuff. This way, the maps stick to the Halo universe, and the theme holds. Custom stuff is great, though, and I can't wait for this stuff to be resolved.

So, please, understand that this game will die if people are stuck with the same old crap all the time. Hell, there isn't even matchmaking. Still, I bought the game and I plan to play it to its dying breath.

I just want that dying breath to be a long, long way away.

[Kornman00]

Its not just game objects. Its sounds, (material) effects, visual jazz like lens flares and particles, etc.

[Tweek]

Its not just game objects. Its sounds, (material) effects, visual jazz like lens flares and particles, etc.

^

remember evolution?

[Kornman00]

remember evolution?
all that i know about it was that it was a mod, and now the only person on the evolution "team" is WoL.

[Tweek]

thats not the point lawl.
thing is, it was pull-off-able, but h2v wont let you do shit.

it would be one of the things attracting people to the game.
but because h2v lets you do nothing wich isnt purely map-geometry only, no people-puller for h2v.

[stunt_man]

So let me get this straight... You're saying that they literally aren't letting us use 'effects?' You're saying the sun won't shine in custom maps?

Or are you just restricted to effects that are already in the game?

[Kornman00]

the sun is defined by the sky definitions, which are editable by the stock h2guerilla, so it can shine. But no, you can't open\create new effects.

[Skyline]

I've created a new effect :confused2:.

[Lateksi]

People do play the game. People want custom maps. Custom maps add life to the same old rotation. What you're saying is that custom maps are pointless, just because you can't input your own custom models. Well, eventually, that will likely be possible.

What did we do with Halo CE? We made do with what we had. And look what it became! Sure, the game's pretty much dried up and dead now, but at its prime, I can say that is the best game I ever played. The point is, we used what we had, bitched and moaned about it for years, but the custom stuff still came out on top.

You say there's no one playing the game? I haven't been on CE in like a week, but I'm 99% positive there are more people playing H2V than CE.

If everyone had a mind like yours, who would've made the maps that made Halo CE so great? When CE was released, it was little more than Halo 2 Vista is. The only thing is that the complaints then were about documentation (because no one knew how to use the materials).
But they quickly learned, and top-notch stuff was released.

One more thing: who said a map needs custom scenery to be good? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing maps with Bungie's stuff. This way, the maps stick to the Halo universe, and the theme holds. Custom stuff is great, though, and I can't wait for this stuff to be resolved.

So, please, understand that this game will die if people are stuck with the same old crap all the time. Hell, there isn't even matchmaking. Still, I bought the game and I plan to play it to its dying breath.

I just want that dying breath to be a long, long way away.
Dude what the hell, it was moving...

[Mr Buckshot]

H2V's editing kit is locked to the point that the only "custom" features available are custom ENVIRONMENTS. Custom weapons, bipeds, etc are what many users look for in user-created content, and therefore the user-created maps are not very popular since they're just new environments.

[Chewy Gumball]

Not even environments. You can't make trees or bushes or tables or anything like that.

[[EJ] Bean]

Instanced geormetry as I understand it allows for most of the things that scenery did.

[p0lar_bear]

Most people get bitchy about the locked up EK, but really, think about it. What are a majority of Halo CE's greatest custom maps? Why, just a brand-new BSP, that's all. The Narrows. Grove. Wartorn. Church. New Mombasa Classic. Of course, there were maps that broke the mold, like Hugeass, Coldsnap, H2CE's and CMT's maps, Pipedream, Area 5x, etc etc, but those fully custom maps are far and few, and nobody really plays them anymore. Also the fact that people were unwilling to share what they learned with people outside of their mapping teams/rings of friends combined with the lack of documentation made content creation feel a bit restricted to a privileged few. I'm not talking about somoene showing off something and then keeping the method to the madness a secret until they kinked out the bugs to it, but people afraid to give out info because this knowledge that they found out with their research set them apart from the rest, and if they gave up this information, it would make them not as unique.

But I digress. The reason why not a lot of people are working on maps is mainly because of the lack of a userbase. Not many people have computers powerful enough to run Halo 2, and most people who have said computers have already beaten the game on the XBox numerous times on Legendary, so why spend $50 on a game you've already played to death for a new map editor, which, by the way, requires a thousand-dollar 3D editing software package to use?

[DOMINATOR]

there would be a lot more maps if the game was on XP. like previously stated.

[Kornman00]

I've created a new effect :confused2:.
With the stock editing kit?

[Skyline]

Yes, it was one of the first things I did. It was a pretty simple effect lol.

[Kornman00]

no, I meant a .effect tag :-/

[Patrickssj6]

Korn and Sky should become politicians....


But no, you can't open\create new effects.


I've created a new effect :confused2:.


With the stock editing kit?


Yes, it was one of the first things I did. It was a pretty simple effect lol.


no, I meant a .effect tag :-/

Too much blabla and no one get's what they are trying to express :awesome:

[Kornman00]

man and breast must coexist :downs:

[Mr Buckshot]

Not even environments. You can't make trees or bushes or tables or anything like that.

Yeah, environments are that limited too. By environments I meant a building or something, but no destructible objects or statues or anything. Think of it as an FPS version of the Age of Empires II built-in map editor.

[Lateksi]

Think of it as an FPS version of the Age of Empires II built-in map editor.
Lol. Just lol.

[stunt_man]

I was under the impression that you can't use anything apart from what's already in the game. What I'm trying to say is that there's kick-ass stuff already in the game, why not re-use some of it?

Of course, it seems there are other factors slowing down custom content, but some people want to be ignorant and not make anything out of it because they're afraid it won't look as good as custom content. To tell the truth, I found the stock stuff in Halo PC looked better than the custom stuff in CE (not to say that stuff wasn't kick-ass, but who knows how to suit Halo better than Bungie, right?).

[Chewy Gumball]

There just aren't that many map makers willing to put their time into a custom map of the quality you are looking for. Windows Live's crappiness, and it being a Vista exclusive title already cut the community to a minimum.

[randreach454]

Im trying my hardest to finish the layout to one of my maps so I can at least get a beta out to get a few peeps to start playing again!!!!
I really am trying :'(

[Patrickssj6]

Think of it as an FPS version of the Age of Empires II built-in map editor.
Actually that map editor has more features :rolleyes:

[[EJ] Bean]

The problem for me is that I have never seen servers I can join with custom maps. Is there a place we can apply for someone to host dedicated servers running our maps? h2v.net maybe?

[stunt_man]

Is there a place we can apply for someone to host dedicated servers running our maps? h2v.net maybe?

Now there's an idea...

[Syuusuke]

Well, there could've been but...


I can't rely on Jcap anymore since he somehow broke the official H2Vista.net server...

[Mr Buckshot]

I was under the impression that you can't use anything apart from what's already in the game. What I'm trying to say is that there's kick-ass stuff already in the game, why not re-use some of it?

Of course, it seems there are other factors slowing down custom content, but some people want to be ignorant and not make anything out of it because they're afraid it won't look as good as custom content. To tell the truth, I found the stock stuff in Halo PC looked better than the custom stuff in CE (not to say that stuff wasn't kick-ass, but who knows how to suit Halo better than Bungie, right?).

About the stock stuff, yeah, it's pretty good too. As Reaper Man said, the Halo engine is perfect for it was meant to be. To add to that: Unfortunately, it's not perfect for custom content, and H2V follows suit.

Yeah there is kick-ass in-game content. It's just that when newbies hear the word "custom," they want everything to be new, and therefore Halo CE maps that are simply new geometry (i.e. No Remorse) are not as popular as those that feature more than just custom geometry, such as weapons and vehicles.

The only thing you can modify about the weapons is the projectile fired...you can make the magnum shoot shotgun rounds or the battle rifle shoot rockets and so on, but that's lame.

And of course, H2V's terrible porting has exponentially decreased its multiplayer community, so custom maps don't get the attention they deserve also because people can't even use them.

I doubt there's going to be much hope for H2V's custom-map aspect. Halo 2 is not even that popular among PC gamers, plus it's not too accessible due to its Vista requirement. Even if you run it on XP through a hack, you can't go online. And if anyone does unlock the editing tools, there still won't be enough players online. Even when Vista stabilizes (via service packs) and completely replaces XP as a standard OS, Halo 2 won't get any more popular.

[Kornman00]

:words:
And of course, H2V's terrible porting has exponentially decreased its :words:

Right, because if you ported it, you could have made the game %100 perfect.http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-jerkbag.gif

[Mr Buckshot]

Hell yeah! If I had ported it, I would make it compatible with DX8.1 video cards and of course, Windows XP. The game doesn't even use much of SM2.0, so making that a minimum requirement is unacceptable, and since many old-fashioned users on this forum are still on Radeon 9250s...

Even I don't play on H2V's multiplayer that much, simply because there are fewer players than on cracked versions of other games. The netcode is far smoother than Halo 1's was, but that doesn't help if I can't find any 10-16 player servers.

Well, Kornman, I think we depend on you and other distinguished modders to "unlock" the EK, although I doubt it's worth the effort.

[UXB]

What did we do with Halo CE? We made do with what we had. And look what it became! Sure, the game's pretty much dried up and dead now,Then why is my bandwidth still climbing and the website getting over 2.5 to 3 million page views a month? The perception that the Halo CE game has died is still as incorrect as the perception that it was still born. It was and still is a niche game with an ardent if now changed user base.

What are a majority of Halo CE's greatest custom maps? Why, just a brand-new BSP, that's all. The Narrows. Grove. Wartorn. Church. New Mombasa Classic. For game play it is all about the level BSP and asset placement. Something people seem to overlook at their peril.


Of course, there were maps that broke the mold, like Hugeass, Coldsnap, Novelty is like a shinny new toy at Christmas played with for a while then discarded. However some do tend to develop their own following.


Also the fact that people were unwilling to share what they learned with people outside of their mapping teams/rings of friends combined with the lack of documentation made content creation feel a bit restricted to a privileged few. The release of tags, utilities and tutorials was a major factor in spurring new map creation. The lessons of the past would be well learned by many here.


Hell yeah! If I had ported it, I would make it compatible with DX8.1 video cards and of course, Windows XP. Even though your entire business plan was to move all desktops to Vista and early retire your old operating systems? You have to think like a business to understand why product is like it is.


The netcode is far smoother than Halo 1's was, but that doesn't help if I can't find any 10-16 player servers. It also requires nearly 3 times as much bandwidth as the original Halo 1 net code was allowed to be. Halo 1 was to run on a 56K modem when specified in 2004. Considering that broadband penetration in 2004 was less than 3% it was not an unreasonable spec for the time.





But I digress. The reason why not a lot of people are working on maps is mainly because of the lack of a userbase.Halo 2 like Halo CE is a niche game heavily overshadowed but the Xbox. When Halo 1 came out there were still many people who did not have and Xbox and waited for the PC version. Now the Xbox has a much wider user base than before so (years late) PC ports of popular Xbox games will most definitely only create a niche community.

I suspect that as more maps get made and the tools get better there will be, like in Halo CE, a tipping point where it actually draws people. But the Halo 2 PC game will never, in my opinion, be as polular as the Halo 1 PC game was because of the Xbox penetration. You guys got a couple of years before the potential Halo 3 port might be available so just keep at it.

[stunt_man]

I agree with with UXB, and I'm sorry - I wasn't clear about my thoughts on CE. It may not be dead, but it's lost its 'fire' - if you can argue that, please do, I'd like to believe something else.

Is it the decline of the Gearbox CE Forum? Possibly, seeing as the CE community is now scattered over a few sites (this being the most popular), but I still don't see many mind-blowing projects coming out. The last great map that came out would have to be Church - a wonderful map that doesn't get the attention it deserves. Next up? Yoyorast V2? Even the fate of that is uncertain. Don't get me wrong - I can't wait to see it, but let's face the facts: how many people are still going to be around when that map gets released?

You tell me - I have no idea.

But if it's true that your site's getting more hits, then so be it, and I wish CE good luck.

[UXB]

I agree with with UXB, and I'm sorry - I wasn't clear about my thoughts on CE. It may not be dead, but it's lost its 'fire' - if you can argue that, please do, I'd like to believe something else.
Actually the statistics are simple: More people are downloading files and more files are being downloaded than in 2006. More unique people are visiting the website than in 2006. More people are posting in our forums and generating more threads than in 2006 and the website generates more traffic and consumes twice as much bandwidth in the terabyte range than in 2006.

Interpreting the statistics in a meaningful way for the individual is much more difficult task. Let me just say that it may be for you that the fire has died and what people like about and do with the game now may not what you are looking for. That is acceptable, fine and natural. However the number of maps submitted has risen since last year and more people are making maps. Maybe the maps they make are not what you like but they are what they like.

I am not trying to be judgmental on what people like or dislike or how they feel but the statement that Halo CE is dead is not a statistical fact but a subjective one.

[Teh Ganon]

From what I have noticed and have been told of the past, as in pc and ce combined, the clan and gaming aspect has dwindled a bit. I can agree, and that does seem to be partially true. But even today there are aspiring and stable/famed clans that exist. My question is, compared to now and 05 and 06, how does the server count differ on an average?

[Sakievich]

Thought I'd throw in my two bits.

I'm no longer making any maps for H2V for essentially three reasons. One, I don't like the limitations of the editor. Yeah, I know about instancing geometry and yes, most of what I did in HCE can be done with the editor as it is, but still...I had plans, big ones. In fact, there was a group of us. Two, almost no one is playing H2V online. I check it once in a while to see if there are many players on it, and during what would normally be peak hours H2V gets about 60-70 players. That's it. I'm not making maps for a game that no one plays. Three, the Windows Live thing kinda pisses me off too (pssst...Steam is free).

In brighter news, HCE seems to have a lot more players (http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=982&s=1). I've seen as many as 600 during peak gaming hours. I don't know that I'll make anything for it, but I think (and it's been a while since I've taken any math courses) that 600 is more than 70.

It's too bad that MS had to go and ruin H2V for us. It had so much potential for the community. I feel bad for the poor people that were forced to port it within the specifications they were given. It's sad all around.

On a brighter note, Unreal Tournament 3 is coming, and if they've restored the force of gravity to it as they've said they have, then maybe...we'll see. Plus, a collector's version comes with a multitude of tutorial videos, 10 hours worth or so. You can count on Epic to put out a great editor for their games.

So, that's what I think. If those things get fixed, then maybe I'll be back pushing polys and pixels.

[Mr Buckshot]

And sadly, H2V is definitely not going to help sell Windows Vista...I like Vista, and it's doing pretty well, but H2V is definitely not contributing to Vista sales.

Personally, I think that it's better to play the stock H2V maps instead of wasting time creating custom content, since there just aren't enough players to appreciate your work. I've seen some great-looking H2V maps on halomaps.org - too bad few people play them.

[UXB]

And sadly, H2V is definitely not going to help sell Windows Vista.This is a common but incorrect misconception. Making H2 PC just for Vista had nothing to do with increasing Vista sales. MS is consolidating all projects to Vista because XP will not be sold by year end. It is strickly a business decision to not support products on multiple OS platforms.

I'm no longer making any maps for H2V for essentially three reasons. One, I don't like the limitations of the editor.I suspect that IF Halo 3 comes to PC it may not have a level editor at all and just support the forge system. Only time will tell.

[Patrickssj6]

MS is consolidating all projects to Vista because XP will not be sold by year end.
Sorry UXB but that's incorrect. I read from a source today that they extended the sales to June 2008 and there is a positive chance that it will be extended even further.

[DaneO'Roo]

On a brighter note, Unreal Tournament 3 is coming

iawtp.

Anyone seen the minimum specs for that?

Rofl, such good performance, such a good game, the sickest graphics, and a fully unlocked Unreal Ed?

I'm so fucking there.

[Pooky]

I've seen some great-looking H2V maps on halomaps.org - too bad few people play them.

deja vu anyone...

[Sakievich]

Here are the specs for UT3 according to planet unreal (http://planetunreal.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=144268).

Coming in November, oh yeah, you'll be able to port your stuff to consoles as well as pc's, though all the development will have to be done on a pc, of course.