Modacity shooters' thread

It's also the most unwieldy handgun short of the massive civilian guns like the Desert Eagle and Grizzly. No excuse for being so huge, especially when it's USP sibling in the same caliber can also mount a suppressor. I would bet my non-existent hat those 1911s were either old, not taken care of sufficiently, or both.

Even still, that's one H&K gun out of their armoury. Their others are easily bested by other companies' designs.

@TeeKup: the complaints are more with the bullet than the gun. Everybody seems to forget that. 5.56 out of an M4 or any carbine is shit because it loses its energy too quickly. If they were smart, they would have switched calibers to 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC at the same time they switched guns. Sell off the stocks of 5.56 NATO on the civilian market, there are tons of us who can use it.

There is literally nothing good I can say about HK on the whole. Shit, I have a hard time picking out one of their guns which is actually worth the hype it gets, let alone the cost.

~FN supremacy~

FN is win because they have Browning under their belts. I'm sorry, but nothing H&K has done will ever top Browning with the only true H&K innovation being the G11 Caseless Assault Rifle.

The only reason they got Browning was because the President of Remington arms died of a heart attack the day he went to sell the auto-5 and his first semi-auto pistol patents to them. I agree though that nobody can best John Browning. The guy was a genius. He measured his designs on white paper in inches. INCHES. Everything by all the other makers was in multimeter. He was the master of gun design, only Paul Mauser can even come close (well Mannlicher was close too).

Eh, Mauser made the first modern bolt-action, but I mean that wasn't anywhere near as impressive. All he did was essentially marry the brass cartridge to a breech-loader. Eventually he threw a magazine and a safety in there. I think the Lee action is far superior.

Really? The one lug Lee is superior? I strongly disagree. The Enfield is one of my favorites (one of the first guns I fired too) but come on. There is a reason that the 98 became the design of choice for all bolt rifles. The multiple lug system is inherently more accurate, and is alot less likely to fail than the Lee Enfield system. It handles pressure to a much higher standard, and while its not nearly as easy to operate, it is much better as a hunting weapon.
That said, for military purposes I like the Lee as well. The fast easy action made it relevant well into th 20th century, and unless your figuring on fighting in the American mountains, the .303 Brit is all the cartridge you will ever need in a military situation. Plus the 10 round mag was ahead of its time, as was its ability to be detachable.

The reason it (the Mauser system) won out is because it came out first and was marketed better. The single lug is absolutely massive; I don't honestly think the pressure tolerance is an issue (mine is an Ishapore and shoots .308...almost equivalent to .30-06). Accuracy of the system only comes into play if you are already a damn fine shot, but the fact that the British made successful sniper rifles out of the weapon means it is a moot point. The Mauser system does have a much better safety, I will give it that. I wouldn't trust my Enfield's safety, ever.

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Originally Posted by Warsaw

No excuse for being so huge, especially when it's USP sibling in the same caliber can also mount a suppressor.

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It's huge because it was designed to be a high-capacity offensive handgun, yes, offensive handgun you heard right. Since it's so huge it can carry two extra rounds per magazine, which isn't a huge difference but in a firefight you never know. That double-tap could save your life bro.

Also, quoted directly from Wiki:

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The MK23 Mod 0 was built as an "offensive" handgun for U.S. special operations forces under USSOCOM, as per request made in 1989. Military versions of the firearm have the writing "MK23 USSOCOM" engraved on the slide.

The MK23 is considered a match grade pistol, and is capable of making a 2-inch (51 mm) group at 50 yards (46 m), roughly 4 MOA. Production began in 1991, and it was the basis for the HK USP, which began production in 1993. The MK23 has exceptional durability in harsh environments, being waterproof and corrosion-resistant. It uses a polygonal barrel design, which is reported to improve accuracy and durability. It also features an ambidextrous safety and magazine release on both sides of the frame. The magazine release is at the rear edge of the trigger guard, which is wide enough to allow the use of gloves. A decocking lever is on the left side, which will silently lower the cocked hammer. The MK23 is part of a larger weapon system that includes an attachable laser aiming module, a suppressor, and some other features such as a special high-pressure match cartridge (.45 +P ammunition).

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So basically the MK23 was the stepping stone to the USP, as such it had some issues (like the size). But it also had and still has some awesome features, like the completely silent decocking lever. The last sentence really shows what it was designed to be, a handgun that was designed as a whole "weapon system", opposed to most just being designed as last resort type firearms. The MK23 was designed for people like Sam Fisher, people that we aren't supposed to know about and use insanely overpriced gadgets and weaponry.

You don't need a monster of a pistol for a larger mag though.

As far as the Lee/Mauser debate goes:

I love my Lee-Enfields. I absolutely fucking adore them. That said, the Lee action is a relic of the blackpowder era and is inherently prone to earlier failures than the Mauser action. That one massive locking lug might look solid now, but given two world wars or someone who shoots hundreds of rounds through it a week, it will eventually wear down enough. It might not be visibly dangerous, but one day you're going to pull that trigger and the bolt is going to unlock itself and implant the cocking piece in your face. If the lug is what wears and not the corresponding lockup channel in the receiver, you can replace the bolt; if not, you're going to need a new rifle. It's a less retardedly dangerous and throwaway system than roller locking, but not by much.

The Mauser action, on the other hand, takes a hell of a long time to fail and does tend to produce more accuracy (at the expense of reliability; even inch-pattern SMLEs, versus 'Enfield inch' examples, are horrifically unreliable as soon as they're exposed to dirt) due to tighter tolerances and a much more solid lockup. While the Lee action's design does make it probably both the fastest and smoothest of bolt actions anywhere, the Mauser action can be operated just as rapidly by someone with a little strength and some experience. I do love the Lee action, though, as any idiot can crank out shots like there's no tomorrow on it while the Mauser takes some practice.

At the end of the day, the Lee is a better combat rifle, but the Mauser is what you want for any civilian application other than the obvious milsurp collecting/fun to shoot value. It will last forever.

Freelancer: Sam Fisher uses the FN Five-seveN. That is a tiny handgun. Sam Fisher would NOT use the Mk. 23. If it was the stepping stone to the USP, why is it even still around when the USP is more compact, can mount systems underneath, can be supressed, and has a double-stack .45ACP magazine? That said, you don't have to have a big gun for big ammunition capacity. Extended mags, bro. They work.

@Ross: I guess they are valid points. If you've been having to fire an Enfield that much, though, you ought to have spares on hand in the first place.