Im not sure who exactly worked on these tags and assets but im sure who ever they are wont be happy to see their credit being taken
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Baha cant stop laughing.
Oh look that snowtrap map is really good. I bet he spent a long time modeling and unwrapping it.
Yeah, that Sandtrap map is fantastic! He makes Inferno looks like a n00b.
Owai-
He's also pretty fast, compared to the other teams I know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno
Yeah this kid is amazing. If only I could make a account to congratulate him on his amazing modding capability's and ability to create all of this content by himself with no help from anyone else. Too bad halomods registering doesn't work properly for me.
Meh. I saw that thread before and I facepalmed. I didn't feel like posting until this thread started. eh.
onoz rippzzzz
I don't know what's worse: him claiming to have made all that, or the people who're eating it up.
But in lieu of what I've said before about this, not much we can do about it. I would really prefer it if people wouldn't sign up and/or post there just to call him out and cause a huge shitfest on ModNexus, even though this seems pretty screwed up.
I personally hate to see the credit stolen for things like this, although there is never anything I can do other than glare menacingly at them.
Someone with an account there send my regards.
Hey look another "let's make fun of kids better than me!" thread. The only thing more pathetic than the kids post is the fact you feel we need it brought to our attention. woopie fucking do. Ignore it.
Comming from the one who claimed he didnt care if giagher used his own teams tags against there will, ladies and gentlement, please give masters1337 a round of applause. *Applause*Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
Masters, if you don't like it then get out.
Considering many modders from this site have shed blood sweat and oil trying to get some of these things working for their own projects i would have thought you would atleast have some sort of compassion but as shown by the giagher thread...you do not.
No. No. No.
Do NOT start this shit in this thread.
Im sorry p0lar but where the fuck in the EULA doe's it say anything about tags being generated in tool no longer owned by the creator of said resources?Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
I think...
Quote:
3. COPYRIGHT. All title and copyrights in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including but not limited to any images, photographs, animations, video, audio, music, text, and “applets” incorporated into the SOFTWARE PRODUCT), the accompanying printed materials, and any copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT are owned by Microsoft or its suppliers. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international treaty provisions. Therefore, you must treat the SOFTWARE PRODUCT like any other copyrighted material.
I was always under the understanding that ment already incorporated otherwise would it not say compiled not incorportated?Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
As in it was already in the code but later on added by modders.
This is considering there are many other EULA's that say that line and not all of them have anything to do with modders for a video game.
Existing tags are incorporated into the vanilla package where as new custom tags are compiled and imported into the original package post distribution.
Then I'm not sure; what I do remember is that Dennis had talked with his legal team on the matter since this pointless-assed drama has been around since day 1, and they basically said that the data generated by Tool, Sapien, and Guerilla belongs to Bungie and/or Microsoft, and that makes sense; it's their applications outputting data in their proprietary formats. You still own the rights to source files, however, the tags are not ours.
Yes but the tags can be used to recover the source files which has been done for years which is where my gripe comes from.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
Im going strictly by the EULA not by what Dennis has said in the past just official information passed to us by Gearbox and microsoft game studios.
What you said or rather dennis said about code being compiled in bungies tools could be said for any other application.
For instance You have a .obj file you somehow created in a application you designed and were to import that into 3ds max would that mean autodesk now own the information saved in that .MAX file?
It says nothing about models. :raise:Quote:
3. COPYRIGHT. All title and copyrights in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including but not limited to any images, photographs, animations, video, audio, music, text, and “applets” incorporated into the SOFTWARE PRODUCT), the accompanying printed materials, and any copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT are owned by Microsoft or its suppliers. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international treaty provisions. Therefore, you must treat the SOFTWARE PRODUCT like any other copyrighted material.
"Including but not limited to", is the key phrase here.
Of course if you're 18 and under, or just turned 18, you can use the infant contracts shit to just repudiate your agreement to the EULA, of course it really isn't worth the trouble at all now is it?
Wait... If I take models from UT3 and put them through tool does bungie own them...
H4X?
You don't have much idea how legal systems work do you?
Can we please keep the shit to a low level i want to hear from p0lar what he has to say about my question to him.
If models compiled into tags are considered bungies content then how can companies sue you for models in .MAX format because by that logic models made by said companies would be owned by Autodesk.
I personaly think i've found a rather large loophole either that or something in the EULA has been misinterpretted and as such could cause quite a few issues with not just the kid on halomods but also many issues on this site in the past.
Not a clue. My understanding on legality is that everything you do is illegal but the cops only get on to you if they see you doing something.
That should be no problem considering the age of most of Halo's userbase :allears:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
The difference being that the EULA for programs like 3dsmax and Photoshop probably either don't claim ownership of assets produced, or expressly state that the data generated belongs to the user. Plus, their formats, like Photoshop PSD and Autodesk MAX, have been released to the public domain by them, whereas the structures of Bungie's tags and map cache files are 100% proprietary and the only reason some know their structure is because they reverse-engineered the engine and data (which the HEK EULA expressly states that we aren't supposed to do).Quote:
Originally Posted by =sw=warlord
Not sure if you're just saying that for the sake of irony (lol), but the answer is both yes and no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno
The generated tag belongs to Bungie/MS. The IP and the source model are still Epic's.
I think I see where P0lar's coming from here.
Incorporated can be taken to mean "added to" or "become a part of", so if a tag has been incorporated into the game, it has become a part of the game and thus now belongs to Bungie/Microsoft.
While all the assets which are not in tag form are not Bungie's, any data which has been put through Tool is now theirs.
However, the assets behind the tags are not. The issue arises when people take credit for making the model and texture assets for something, when they have not. Those belong exclusively to their creator, and stealing credit and telling people they made the model and bitmap assets is morally and legally wrong.
HOWEVER: If the changes you have made are all tag-based (Iflufawhatever's Plasma Pack, for instance), you have zero ground to stand on. None of the things you have created are yours, they belong to Microsoft and Bungie exclusively, even though you have done all the work, according to the EULA.
AS SUCH: We can protest and get mad at someone stealing MODELS AND TEXTURES for use ingame ONLY, since we made the assets behind the tags. We CANNOT protest someone using the data for the tag itself, as that belongs to Bungie.
The only reason they claim "ownership" is just to protect them legally if anyone comes along and decides to use Bungie's tag format in their own games.
Bungie does not actually take ownership of everything you make. If you reverse the tag and turn it back into a tiff, it's "yours" again.
So what I'm getting out of this is: Bungie owns the tags and everything in the engine, but all of the original assets are the creators.
Correct?
As I understand it, but some posts here are making me question that. Right now, I'm waiting on Dennis to help me find that post he made about the legalities and whatnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by t3h m00kz
Legal bullcrap aside, I still stand firm on the belief that, yeah, it sucks when someone takes credit for your stuff, but it's just a goddamn 5+ year-old unsupported game with no possibility for commercial/official backing of mods. Anyone who flips out about rips and theft of tags in this game is taking it way too seriously.
Sorry I couldn't find the actual post but this should help.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
The subject of ownership of user made game assets has come up numerous times over the past several years and I have seen people misunderstand and misinterpret the intellectual property and copyrights laws just as they have in this thread.
The short version is that: You cannot copyright anything made for or from the Halo game, anything that looks or sound like Halo or anything that is derived from or related to the Halo story or game because Bungie/Microsoft already owns the copyright to that intellectual property. Because you can’t obtain a copyright for your user made creation you have no legal recourse to determine what can or cannot be done with the fan object you create. Without a legal recourse once you give it away it is essentially no longer yours. This means that you cannot own a fan made creation you can only possess it.
In my business as a web-developer and hosting company I handle other people’s intellectual property and copyrighted material and have retained legal counsel specifically for advice on copyright issues as they pertain to my business. They are the same law firm I consulted before starting the Halo Maps website and although I am not an expert on copyright laws I have enough understanding of the ones that pertain to user created content in the gaming industry to know that many if not most of you have a faulty understanding of the copyright issue and the resultant ramifications.
First off copyright laws are civil statutes and not criminal. That means unless some other criminal issue is involved you can’t be arrested, go to jail, or be prosecuted by the state for breaking the laws. However, you or your parents or guardian can be sued by the copyright holder for breach of contract in civil court which could be worst that jail time since it would cost you a lot of money.
A Copyright is the legal protection for unique or singular intellectual property and copyrights, contrary to popular belief, are not automatically granted to something you create. For full copyright protections the IP (intellectual property) must be registered. These laws are complex and full of grey areas and legal interpretations however it is black and white clear that you cannot obtain a copyright for something that is derived from or for an already existing copyrighted IP such as a video game and it’s story.
The allowed use, distribution or sale of a fan made creation from or for a copyrighted IP is at the sole discretion of the copyright holder and in the case of Halo is Bungie & Microsoft. The fact that they don’t stop or prevent the distribution of fan made creations of their IP does not mean they can’t. They in essence have all legal control over anything made for or from the Halo game and because they have that legal control they in essence own the rights to that object, regardless of who made it. This is what I mean by the statement that you can possess a fan made object that you crafted but you can’t own it. You can’t legally sell it, or make any legal claim on it or it’s disposition because you can’t obtain a copyright for it.
In summary: Once you distribute a map, tag or game asset for the Halo Game it is no longer yours to determine what people can do with it. They can copy it, dissect it, change it and use it and there is no legal recourse for you to stop them. The only people that can stop the use of a game asset is Bungie/Microsoft because they are the only ones that have any legal right to it because they own the copyright to the Halo story and game.
I know that many of you are saying that “I made this [Halo thing], it’s mine not Bungie's” and in essence it is only yours for as long as you keep it. You can’t copyright it so you can’t (legally) sell it or license someone to re-create it and you can’t determine what others can do with it. Now it is unlikely that Microsoft or Bungie are going to take it away but they can prevent you from distributing it and sue you if you do. So in all practical sense the fan made creation is not really yours to own even if you made it. You can only possess it.
I have also been asked about models and such that you create for the Halo game and the same principals hold true if the model was created that looks like existing copyrighted material in the Halo game or is specifically for the Halo game you cannot obtain a copyright for it. If you place any of your registered copyrighted models, such as a model of a food dispenser never found in the video game, into the Halo game the act of doing so surrenders your rights to that object and assigns them to the copyright holder of the video game in this case Microsoft & Bungie.
The simple fact is that you cannot retain any legal copyrights to previously registered copyrighted intellectual property or in this case anything made for or from the Halo game or story.
You can’t own this stuff people, you can play with it and you can possess it but beyond that... it is not yours.
I notice you mention "Halo Game" a bit there. Is that simply Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo: Custom Edition, or does that include the game's engine?
Example: let's say I make a fully original story, unrelated in any way, shape, or form to Halo. All characters, scenarios, and assets are created by me (or to be more realistic, my team), and I decide to use Blam for the game's engine. Again, this game concept is entirely detached from Halo, and does not refer to it in any way, including Easter Eggs. Even though my game concept is entirely unrelated to Bungie's IP, and the only thing my and Bungie's IPs have in common is the game engine, I'm still surrendering my rights to the IP to Microsoft and Bungie?
If this is the case, I would imagine this is also the same for mods made on other engines, and if you truly wanted to make a game where it is able to be legally yours, you would have to code your own engine.
Also, Inferno makes a point here: assets ripped from other engines are a complete and total legal mess.
I believe the point being made is, if it's Halo inspired then you don't "own" it, regardless of where it goes.
Also, if your content is ran through bungie/ms owned tools (guierlla sapien tool) it is no longer your property..because it's now part of a copyrighted engine..
So basically once your content is in tag format, you no longer hold the rights to the content..
What if, rather than using the normal HEK tools, you use tools that you have created yourself to compile the assets into the tag and map formats. Just because they are in the tag/map format, does that make them Bungie/Microsoft's property even though you haven't used their tools to create them? If that is the case, where does it state that the tag and map formats are Bungie/Microsoft's?Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLa
Legally, those tools shouldn't even exist.
plus your still using their file formats...and engine to use them..
and that story can do deeper and deeper and eventually result in nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLa
i predict that 10 pages ahead it'll say:
"so liek, if i r get deadpenalty for it, but i r vampire, it r not illegal since i r gotten deadpenalty amirite?"
At the end, we'll end up writing our own engine, like I do right now, since this stuff goes too deep and I'll never get satisfied anyways.
Unless you get all your stuff on black and white, all your base belongs to them.
Seriously, I wouldn't even want to go through all their "rules" because I'm modelling-happy and didn't take the effort to model my name into the model. <-- which is basically all you can do...
No modding tools should exist for that matter, but they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
Where does it state the nobody else can use those file formats? Are they copyrighted?Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLa
uh obviously..since they're part of the engine..
.DDS is used in the Cryengine 2 for Crysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLa
That would be a file format and since many games use said file format it would seem you are wrong.
If you create an original game and use anyone's commercial game engine without obtaining the proper license for it, the copyright holder of the game engine has the right to prevent you from selling or distributing it because they own the copyright the to software that is intergral to playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
For example Gearbox Software's BIA and new Borderlands games are run on the UT game engine. They have to license the use of the game engine in order to sell and distribute those games.
There maybe some open source or more specifically MIT or GNU licensed game engines you could use to create an sell an original game but any commercial game engine MUST be licensed for use or else the creation is a fan based creation and you have no rights to its sale or distribution.
It doesn't mater what you use. YOu could type one's and zero's into notepad and it wouldn't make a difference. You can't copyright anything for or from the Halo story or game. Period. Regardless of how it is created or made.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSpartan
You just can't own this stuff. So just play nice with it.
The whole tag system and formats are part of the copyrighted HEK, which all are part of halo, and it's engine, regardless of how you "replicate" the files or tags, your still using their engine, and illegally reverse engineering their engine to even make such a tool...
dds file format is a whole different story, and is commonly used throughout games, and has it's OWN history...btw dds(DirectDraw Surface) was created BY MICORSOFT... and is part of direct X it's self..look it up...
So all in all, all your base are belong to them, unless they make it open source(ha yea right)...sooo stop coming up with random wana be loop holes and just read the EULA next time you use mod tools for a gaming engine..
I think you have to separately copyright file formats.
Come again?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSpartan
I'd imagine the people who developed the game in the first place (or any affiliated company with the proper authority) should be able to distribute modding tools if they want.
I wasn't talking about the HEK tools there, I meant tools created by people in the modding community.Quote:
Originally Posted by t3h m00kz
Oh okay I was like "wait wut" for a second