Criticism.

Alright, recently there has been a lot of flaming going on in modeling threads, and just wip threads in general, because people lack understanding and basic brain cells.

So we're going to clear things up

#1. When you post your work you immediately open yourself to other peoples comments. Before you post you should realize this. If you don't want me or tweek or snaf comin in there and waking you from your crappy little fantasy world, DON'T POST IT. No one has to like your work. Users are going to post what they think about it. If they hate it, they'll tell you. It's up to YOU to not be such a little school girl about it.

#2. Don't take things so personally. Me, Snaf, Tweek, Ross, and many others are VERY critical. This does not mean we hate you and are intentionally trying to flame you or cause problems. 90% of people on this forum do not know what they're talking about in terms of anything. So when 10 people start saying "awesome" etc. and we come in and say no it sucks, don't take it personally.

#3. Posting criticism without posting help.
Far to often people start bitching that "it sucks, this is wrong here and here" is not good criticism. We got news for you, it's plenty fine. You post your work knowing people will give their opinion. If for example someone were to say, "This is horrible, the ejection is wrong, stock is wrong, it's completely unproportional" then that right there is all you need. Don't start crying cause we said it was horrible, take the information and CONTINUE working on. Read the post, they told you what was wrong, it's your model is it not? Then why don't you go find better pictured to make it better. If you can't then ask for help, we will gladly assist you in finding reference pictures or tutorials. We will NOT however, teach you how to do it. We learned on our own, we have more important things to do, you can do it yourself. We told you what's wrong, research it and fix it. Asking for help here and there is not a problem, but be polite about it don't start bitching out everyone who hates your work.

#4. Some members have more experience then others. If some kid with a mediocre model comes along and says that your work is awesome, then me and snaf come and say it's wretched, you're better off listening to snaf who knows what he's talking about.

#5. When you lash out at people who try to help you, you lose their respect. So if you lash out only expect straight up criticism from then on, no help. If you reject our help then fine, we won't give it to you. From then expect nothing but "it sucks, leave".

#6. Learn from those who are more experienced then you. Don't take things personally. Ask them questions on where to find pictures, tutorials, etc. Occasionally when we're not busy we'll offer you plenty of help if you contact us, if we're busy don't pester us that won't help.Be acceptive and respective and we'll return you the same favor. Reject our help we'll reject you and all work from then on out. Unless you work damn hard to get respect back.

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

Exactly my thoughts. Sometimes, people just think they should get a pat on the back and "good effort" said to them all the time. I'm not your mother, I'm not going to hold your hand, I'm not going to say "nice try lil buddy!"

I'll tell you what I know, and I'll tell you how to get better. I'll share all my resources with you. I'll share my techniques. I'll even take time with you one-on-one. Send me the model, I'll do what i can to fix it. I'll even use different media to explain it until you understand. I don't even have a problem answering a question out of the blue on AIM.

Don't you dare say that I'm not helpful, especially if you don't know me. You haven't got a crutch to stand on in an argument about that, and plenty of people will tell you that.

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Now enough bitching out at people telling others what they really think of their work. Get over it, not everyone agrees, but usually some are more right then others ;).

I like rule three. Shame it never gets obeyed.

Exactly my thoughts. Sometimes, people just think they should get a pat on the back and "good effort" said to them all the time. I'm not your mother, I'm not going to hold your hand, I'm not going to say "nice try lil buddy!"

I'll tell you what I know, and I'll tell you how to get better. I'll share all my resources with you. I'll share my techniques. I'll even take time with you one-on-one. Send me the model, I'll do what i can to fix it. I'll even use different media to explain it until you understand. I don't even have a problem answering a question out of the blue on AIM.

Don't you dare say that I'm not helpful, especially if you don't know me. You haven't got a crutch to stand on in an argument about that, and plenty of people will tell you that.

PRE-FUCKING-CISLY snaf! exactly what i'm trying to get across there.

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Originally Posted by Flyboy

I like rule three. Shame it never gets obeyed.

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You haven't been around long enough to see it. Maybe you should keep your fingers off the keyboard and stop trolling about it.

THAT is one of the kinds of BITCHING that rule 3 is about.

I likey this rule. I just have 1 complaint. Seems that alot of you guys (hardcore modelers) jump into a thread and post the exact opposite of rule #3. You just go.

"It's horrible, gtfo ya thx."

Now, I don't go into alot of modeling threads, correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, I do take crit if it follows rule #3.

Like i said, when a person gets way to cocky, or rejects our help and knowledge, we won't waste our time with him. Users who have a past history don't usually get any more help. Sometimes, but usually rare. Respect our opinion of it, and we'll respect you. We have no issues with helping. Look at leiuk, me and snaf were very critical with him when he first started so he asked snaf for help and since then the 2 of em have been sharing new methods. Don't be so quick to jump of the Flame wagon and think we're trying to start something and get all defensive.

Start over is a valid response, as long as you tell em what to fix. If you want a great product, then sometimes restarting is the best thing to do. I mean hell, i can't tell you how many times i had to restart the receiver on the M14. And I've made at least 4 AK-47's (over a few years) cause my originals sucked.

I agree with you guys. I saw how much people are bein baby because of criticism. Criticism is not a bad thing. It helps you out on what you need to work on. Those who cant take it just doesnt understand they tend to help you.

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Originally Posted by [BD] Spartan

I agree with you guys. I saw how much people are bein baby because of criticism. Criticism is not a bad thing. It helps you out on what you need to work on. Those who cant take it just doesnt understand they tend to help you.

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Yea but when criticism becomes cruel and your basically insulting the person, that's when it has gone too far. Sadly I have seen much of that here too.

Criticism is criticsm. Wether it be harsh or it be nice, it's still going to get the point across that your model/whatever your showing needs to be improved and how to do that.

I don't blame people like Rossmum, SnaFuBAR, tweek, etc. when they try to give help and people just blow it back in there face. I wouldn't want to help that person out if there not willing to take some advice either.

This thread should be a wake-up call to people. Your never gonna get better at something if you don't know what your doing wrong in the first place. So, that's where we come in.

O.0 I wish this was posted along time ago when these forums was first put up. I think this thread should get a sticky.

yeah, and a link to this can get posted in any one of the threads made by people with bad models who are too stupid to post in the wip thread.

Because we need centralized flaming.

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Originally Posted by PenGuin1362

Start over is a valid response, as long as you tell em what to fix. If you want a great product, then sometimes restarting is the best thing to do. I mean hell, i can't tell you how many times i had to restart the receiver on the M14. And I've made at least 4 AK-47's (over a few years) cause my originals sucked.

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Good thread. Also, good point right here. I know I've had to restart parts and peices of my stuff too, just because it's plain wrong. If you need to restart, don't stress it, everyone makes mistakes and you'll just be getting more experiance. And as Snaf said, I also don't mind taking in somebodies model and showing them how to fix it. I like to see new people learning, and don't have a problem helping you get better.

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Originally Posted by Gamerkd16

Yea but when criticism becomes cruel and your basically insulting the person, that's when it has gone too far. Sadly I have seen much of that here too.

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This is how cruel is:
"That modeling is by far the worst I've ever seen! Never go back to modeling because you suck."

Now did you hear anyone say that?

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Originally Posted by Saggy

Criticism is criticsm. Wether it be harsh or it be nice, it's still going to get the point across that your model/whatever your showing needs to be improved and how to do that.

I don't blame people like Rossmum, SnaFuBAR, tweek, etc. when they try to give help and people just blow it back in there face. I wouldn't want to help that person out if there not willing to take some advice either.

This thread should be a wake-up call to people. Your never gonna get better at something if you don't know what your doing wrong in the first place. So, that's where we come in.

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Couldn't have said it better myself

I remember getting angry at Snaf for giving me criticism advice a long time ago... I'd type out this long post saying how it doesn't suck... then go back and read it... and delete it all and say thanks.

It's hard to accept harsh criticism but... if it's harsh it gets the point of just how bad it is.

Very good rules. I second the notion of sticky.

When does criticism become cruel? When the person being criticized either attacks the person giving out criticism or when they completely brush it off and continue with their little fantasy that they're perfect. If you don't want criticism then go to DeviantArt or something.

i support this thread.

though there should be a rule that if someone does not agree with the polynazis, we will come to their house and stab their mothers k.

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Originally Posted by Tweek

i support this thread.

though there should be a rule that if someone does not agree with the polynazis, we will come to their house and stab their mothers k.

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IAWTP.

Good thread. I hope it gets stickied, too.

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Originally Posted by Tweek

i support this thread.

though there should be a rule that if someone does not agree with the polynazis, we will come to their house and stab their mothers k.

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with a rusty machete, and possibly a penis.

gay :fail:

Massacre, is that a side you have not shown us yet? :/

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Originally Posted by Massacre

with a rusty machete, and possibly a penis.

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that made me :lol:

and i concur tweek.

*heil* o/

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Originally Posted by PenGuin1362

*heil* o/

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<-o

shutup, its a needler :-3

Mass...
Wow... Just wow...
Unless, of course, the offender of the PolyNazis happened to be a girl. If it is, I'm in. :p

I've been a bit cocky and too much of an asshole myself lately...I need to get back into 3ds again.

Is it just me, or is this thread becoming one big giant penis joke?

Heh. Cocky. Heh.
Another funny word: Caulk. "Let me fill that hole with some caulk." I said nothing wrong.

Anyway, this thread needs to be stickified and locked before anyone else thinks of some penis jokes.

good thread to be stickied and locked. Honestly tho - I'm out of penis jokes... I can't keep it up.

it can remain unlocked for a bit to leave things open for DEBATE not argument.

I like this thread, it teaches these new members, to actaully think twice about posing a model.

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Originally Posted by rossmum

A few of you might remember the one I posted on the CMT forums... planned to repost it the moment people here started being dicks over criticism but the links were all broken, so I gave up :|

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copying is the sincerest form of flattery.;)

I don't think that phrase has comforted anyone to date.

But on the subject of why this needs to be stickied, this shit about crtiticism happens all to frequently, having this thread will not only make it easier for noobs to understand how things work, it will make it easier for the"poly-nazis" to deal with people without having to start a 15 page rant that sucks in people from near and far and reslults in large waves of neg rep. Having this thread means that if this shit is going down, you at least know where.
And thats why I say sticky.

Speaking of stickies, did the WIP thread get axed because of all the flaming?

No it's still there. Now that the flaming has stop, and doesn't start up again :eyesroll:, it should be fine.

This coming from someone who flame baits in his sig.

Hypocrite much?

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Originally Posted by Agamemnon

This coming from someone who flame baits in his sig.

Hypocrite much?

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It can't really cause a flame in a particular topic. And I'm not trying to egg him on, I'm just pissed at him. My way of expressing this is humor/hatred.

if any of you post more of this ongoing yes-no crap, i'm going to have to stab your mom.

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Originally Posted by rossmum

It constitutes trolling, which is against the forum rules, and also shows you to be about as prepared to follow your own 'values' as I am to stop posting (i.e., not at all). Don't you dare talk down to me, hypocrite.

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Ok, fine. I will be the bigger man and I admit that I was wrong. The signature can be seen as flaming towards you. You are right. Now drop it.

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Originally Posted by Gamerkd16

Ok, fine. I will be the bigger man and I admit that I was wrong. The signature can be seen as flaming towards you. You are right.

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Don't you dare talk down to me

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Now drop it

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Commands are issued by superiors who talk down their subordinates.
You admit that you are wrong but continue to commit the act in question.:fail:

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Originally Posted by Massacre

Commands are issued by superiors who talk down their subordinates.
You admit that you are wrong but continue to commit the act in question.:fail:

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I don't think of his as my superior. (More like at the same level as me.) At this point, I don't even respect him. He has made me think that, and to me acts like an immature idiot. I don't want to flame, I really don't, but you guys provoke me to do so.

I wasn't saying that you are wrong to have an opinion about rossmum, or that it is your purpose in life to pamper him with rep and complements.
I was merely pointing out that you are not the bigger man if you continue the contributing to the fiesta.

I think I am, and that's all that matters. :) Woot.

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Originally Posted by Gamerkd16

I don't want to flame, I really don't, but you guys provoke me to do so.

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i know, it's really fucking hard to not-hit that reply button huh? i feel for you.

also, you're not as funny as i am.

I know, isn't it? I don't know. It's just something about human nature that when someone insults you, you got insult them back. Call me crazy..lol

Yup. :) I can't really steer this topic on-topic because well it sort of already is on-topic.

But I am curious. Why must I shut up first?

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Originally Posted by Gamerkd16

Yup. :) I can't really steer this topic on-topic because well it sort of already is on-topic.

But I am curious. Why must I shut up first?

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seriously, stop trolling or ill have you get some consequences.

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Originally Posted by Tweek

seriously, stop trolling or ill have you get some consequences.

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But seriously, I'm not trying to start a fight here. Why am I the only one being threatened? Rossmum has continued just as much as I have. I have tried stopping. And yet, he's not threatened. If it's just because of his "high status", that's bullcrap.

*sigh*

There are so many times I have seen people come in and post their models thinking they are so amazing. When in reality they need some more years of experience. But if they keep to it, they will get better.

Practice makes perfect. :) So cliche....lol

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Originally Posted by Gamerkd16

*sigh*

There are so many times I have seen people come in and post their models thinking they are so amazing. When in reality they need some more years of experience. And need to be told this is the case.But if they keep to it, they will get better.

Practice makes perfect. :) So cliche....lol

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Yes, you now make sense on the most basic part of this debate.
But you still have to deal with the fact that you took a piece of driftwood up shit creek for the last 24 hours. And where are you now?

I'm not covering my ass. That is what I have seen at any forums. Sorry that I didn't feel like reading a six page thread. Repeat information isn't a bad thing. Not helpful, but not bad.

http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-hitler.gif i'm still watching...

No I read his. Flyboy told me about it, so I read the selected ones. I just ran out of things to say about it. Trying to get back on-topic is tough when you don't have new material to work with.

Haha...Hitler Snaf is watching us... :P

I'll alert the the Natnoobzis (Pronounced Not-noob-zis) that Hitler has arrived.

Nah, I don't kiss his ass. Believe me, he's an ass enough. (Sorry Andrew) But he's my friend, he brought it to my attention, and I decided to reply back with my opinion. I didn't follow his orders. He just informed me about the topic.

But I did just that, and you negative rep'd me. For posting my opinion, like everyone else. Why didn't you negative rep...well...basically EVERYONE else.

I'm guessing I never fealt the cold sting of -rep against my cheek was that I don't fit these:

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hypocritical, illegible or downright ludicrous trash.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa...

Your accepting fault? I just...never thought I'd see this day. And Snaf has made peace with me, like 25 hours ago...

What, are we done then? I can admit I actually started this whole thing. But I still stand on the same point as I did in the beginning.

In reality, at this point aren't we just arguing how much we hate each other? It's actually pretty stupid, at least in the beginning we had a point.

Ok...I'm at fault. Yay, now it's over.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

Ok. I admit I'm at fault. Therefore I'm out of this fight. Flame each other all you want, I'm done.

I'm good.:suicide:

Man, I like flame wars, and this one's been going on for days in multiple topics...

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Originally Posted by Flyboy

I'm good.:suicide:

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That's what she thought.

http://healthcenter.uoregon.edu/images/continue.gif

Are you that fucking stupid?

read: sarcasm.

No comment -_- *clenches fists*

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Originally Posted by Flyboy

No comment -_- *clenches fists*

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:lmao:

We should have a feature that if you read stupid posts your IQ goes down... because after reading the last 6 pages of this thread I think my IQ would be quite low............

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Originally Posted by Llama Juice

We should have a feature that if you read stupid posts your IQ goes down... because after reading the last 6 pages of this thread I think my IQ would be quite low............

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-iq

D:

kidding.

I agree with this to an extent, but sometimes you guys do go a bit overboard with the harshness, and all the helpful criticism gets buried in it.

Here's Dennis' take on the issue:

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Originally Posted by Dennis

http://www.h2vista.net/forums/h2vist...s/viewpost.gif

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The only good rip to shredser here

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majority of the models on this forum don't deserve to shredisized.

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If you will excuse me for commenting on this, the purpose for this forum is to help people learn how to make Halo CE maps. ALL PEOPLE. Not just the experienced. It is not a place to be a bully or show off at the expense of others. I know it is sometime hard but all I ask is that the more experienced help the less experienced when you can and you can't do that by knocking them down.

As an example if you posted a picture of your map what would you prefer that people say:

"It could be better if you extruded the cliffs more and applied other textures"

Or

"That sucks big time noob"

It is OK to dislike something, a map a model, a design but to knock it down just to be mean is not acceptable or useful behavior. Criticism can be hard to take so people should not overreact if someone doesn't like your "thing". However when you give it you have to think how you would feel if some said that to you.

Constructive criticism consists of three parts:
1) You Like or don't like,
2) Why,
3) Suggestions to make it better.

It can’t be called constructive without number three.

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PLease guys, think about it. If you're not told how to improve, what someone is saying is, start again, completely. Then we'll help you.

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Originally Posted by Rosco

PLease guys, think about it. If you're not told how to improve, what someone is saying is, start again, completely. Then we'll help you.

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sometimes starting over is the best course of action to make the model better. some people need to realize this.