Modacity shooters' thread

[Warsaw]

They are machined to extremely fine tolerances and the slightest flaw totally fucks accuracy. They could have one moving part for all the difference it makes, the cost is in the fine machining. They may be a little overpriced for what they are - I'm no metalworker - but to say they should be cheap is ignorant of the work that goes into them.

Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.

[TVTyrant]

Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.

Depends on the way you manufacture tbh.

[Warsaw]

Yes it does. And I can tell you that military weapons are all done by machine. No man is going to be as consistently accurate with his milling. That said, there are some very (!) fine rifles that are hand-made in the world. They are nice in a different way to something like the Chey-Tac. Instead of being cold, clean-cut precision, they are made of quality materials, boast classy lines, have traditional detailing, and feature close-fitting parts. They are guns with a human touch instead of clinically efficient killing machines. Gunsmiths of this caliber are a vanishing breed.

[rossmum]

So apparently there's a Vulcan Cannon from one of our Canadian CF-18's sitting sized in US customs. It jammed while on exercise so we figured we'd send it back to the manufacturer, except we took it out of the CF-18 which changes its legal designation somehow. Apparently it's okay to fly the CF-18's around and into approved international airspace and such when they're whole because it's classed as a defense exercise or something. Once you take the gun out of the plane though it becomes classed as its own thing, a Vulcan Cannon...

You'd think the governments would have some kinds of laws or regulations in place for this kind of incident, but apparently the US Customs sized it when we tried to ship it to the manufacturer... Since it jammed it has "live ammunition" in it still, even though one of these Cannon's is designed to crumple in on itself in event of a jam so it doesn't shred the aircraft. So there's a chunk of crushed metal with a few barrels sticking out of it stuck in US Customs because laws regarding firearms are completely silly.

Obviously I don't know all the exact details, I just got this story from a friend of mine who was working at CFB Bagotville over the summer.

And we all know what a huge shitfight there would be if the roles were reversed in this incident.

Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.

Guns don't design themselves. Steel and aluminium may be cheap but certain blends used for various parts are not. Precision machining, by hand or by CNC, requires precision tooling which is in itself exceptionally expensive. If you were to try and build a Sten right now, it would cost you a motherfucking fortune because the tools and stamping jigs would need to be made up - and this is just a shitty tube gun we're talking about, something the Resistance in Europe used to make in garages with stolen barrel blanks and plumbing supplies.

The cost is not in the gun, it's in the tools used to make it, the materials and mixes thereof, the R&D costs, and so forth. Unless you're talking about HK, in which case they are just gouging you for a stamped-steel CETME clone. Their newer stuff is pretty neat but they still overcharge. Precision rifles are actually expensive for legitimate reasons.

[Warsaw]

It's a one time cost though. After selling a couple thousand units at $14,000 a piece, you've already recouped that entire cost. Trust me, it's about making money. I think you are underestimating how simple firearms actually are. As far as the Chey-tac is concerned, most of that R&D cost was likely not even in the rifle itself; it was in the .408 bullet and that range finder/spotting scope/glorified calculator.

With the tools I have at home (this is just me, because I have a shitload of power tools and table tools and hand tools), I could easily build a machine gun if I set my mind to it, let alone a bolt-action rifle. I can build a foundry and a forge for next to nothing to smelt things and make my own alloys if I have to. I can read up on ballistic physics and do some ballistic testing while changing variables such as rifling number, rate of twist, barrel length, round size, shape, weight, etc. Really, the costs are for the man hours, not the machines or the materials.

Now, while on the subject of home gunsmithy, I would like to take a box-lock and build an over-under pistol for firing slug. Just for shits and giggles.

[TVTyrant]

Bought 150 rounds of 8mm Mauser ammo today. Tomorrow I will go out and purchase my rifle. I cannot produce pictures at present because:
A) I am a terrible photographer.
B) My camera sucks
C) I honestly cannot find my USB connector.

Thus you are all spared from the horrors of my photography.

[PenGuin1362]

On a side note which should I get next? SKS that is wood (don't care if its yugo or russian w/e) and is original or a AK47 or 74 (I hear there are dangers to some manufacturers or something fucking up). I'm leaning more towards a SKS.

I have heard horror stories about AK's in the past. Mostly from shitty American knock offs. Romanian AK's I've heard are okay. Ideally you want a Russian one, but due to their rarity in the states, they aren't as cheap here as you'd thing. I've always wanted an SKS, just because it'd be a fun little target gun. Cheap, but powerful ammo, and semi-automatic. I just always put off getting one for something else.

[Warsaw]

Get a Saiga and have it converted into an AK by a gunsmith. Ted Marshall is a well-known Saiga to AK converter.

[TVTyrant]

As far as the AK goes, any model is fine, but I wouldn't suggest ordering online. Gunshows/sporting goods stores are the best places to get one. The typical version of the Romanian AKM is the WASR-10/63, which doesn't have a dimple over the magazine port. This usually means that the magazine will shake in place, and occasionally cause mis feeds or magazines to drop out.
The GP-75 is a better version of the WASR-10/63 that has the dimple on the port. A big part of the difference is that these use lower receivers that happen to feature the dimple. Supposedly the rest of the parts (which unlike the American made lowers were made in Romania) are of higher quality as well, but I can't vouch for this.
Everything I hear about the Polish Tantal is good, except it is supposedly hard to replace the rear stock. It is a 5.45, which in my mind doesn't really matter except no non-import ammo is available for it at current standing.
Bulgarian, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, and Polish 7.62 or 5.45 models are usually pretty similar. There are obvious aesthetic differences, but all are nice rifles.
I have no idea whether the Russian guns are actually of higher quality or not. I am sure some are, but I wouldn't bet against the idea there are some real dogs out there. The Saiga is nice but requires work to modify it into using standard AK mags.

Personally I really like the SKS by comparison to the AK, but thats a matter of personal preference.


WASR. Note the lack of a dimple over the magazine.



GP75 rifle. Notice the dimple.

[Warsaw]

Ew, AKM copy. I'm a fan of the milled receiver, Type III AK-47 myself.

Russian guns and Bulgarian guns are usually on the same level. Hungarian and Romanian are perfectly functional and chrome-lined, but the hardware isn't as polished as Russian or Bulgarian. Yugo is generally trash because they don't chrome-line the barrels.

Also look out for East German stuff; it's generally up to par with Russian-made because most of it was made under the direct watch of the Soviet government.