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Obama to send 15000 troops into Afghanistan.
I hate to say I told you all so, but it's true. This is ultimate proof that he really has no control over what happens. If McCain had won, this would still be happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
If he can bend over to something like this, he can bend over to anything.
cool story short:
Yes, you are fucked.
Just don't ask Canada for assistance plox.
Ironically, hes taking a trip to Canada, to do just that very thing iirc.
Like I said in IRC channel last night, what a fucking waste of resources.
Yes Afghanistan is very dangerous place more dangerous than Iraq. But putting more troops in completely breaks the whole point of them training AA's and handing power over to the AA's.
Stupid call.
FYI, that was part of the plan, and his campaign, and it was stated openly. :downs:
^This x1000Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR
At least Afghanistan isn't a dubiously justified war for oil.
You guys wanna be ignorant, fine by me.
I just ask when someones going to draw the line on this Obama bullshit and start questioning rather than mindlessly believing and obeying.
Here I was, thinking that no way could current generations be stupid enough to fall for this shit anymore, especially after bush, but christ, here we go again. They really have got everyone by the fucking balls.
Countless amounts of deceptions and blatant lying from the government, and you all bend over backwards for this new guy? It's the same old shit with a black face.
I don't want it to be too late before people start doing anything about this.
Why the need to suddenly go back to afghanistan. Still chasing make believe terrorists? Limiting Russias resources extensions?
It doesn't matter what his agenda was. Fact is, it was an never is his agenda. It's chairman bernanke and his scumfuck buddies who run the world, not some chesspiece.
Do you really think that these banker fuckfaces really ever let a president control the country? Some new guy?
Fuck no. They're not risking anything. They have always been pulling the strings on the puppets. The only one who didn't do as they wished was JFK and look how that went down. That is a fact by the way shut your conspiracy theory bullshit, it's not theory.
JFK wanted to reorganize the CIA and backup all american notes with real silver, and remove the fed reserve bank, effectively removing inflation and capitalist greed (seeing as tenders couldn't simply be made up out of thin air, real money was being traded) He got taken out because the very guys he wanted to dismantle were the very guys who run the show.
Until I see Obama pass a bill to remove the federal reserve bank from the world, he is and always will be an employee rather than a real leader.
also:
the CAFR exposed:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...09513192072459
:tinfoil:
So this plan sub seeds the plan to give power back to the AA's? How are they suppose to take power back when the place is cruelling with troops? They are completely different cultures and fight in completely different ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR
I wish Dane's rant could be considered a joke.
The corporations have long since bought Congress and whoever happens to be in the executive branch, with the Supreme Court being an auction for a case's highest bidder. Remember: If voting really mattered, they would no longer allow us to do it. I am in no way surprised about this, and not just because Barack stated it in his agenda. This was most likely his escape clause to prevent the owners from keeping him out of office, especially after his tax plan.
look how dumb you areQuote:
Originally Posted by DaneO'Roo
It is not a theory because it has been throughly debunked.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneO'Roo
Did he not say in his campaign that he was going to divert military focus from iraq to afghanistan? Regardless of any of your theories and shit, whether or not they are true, this is something that the people new about (in a perfect world where people actually pay attention to the candidates) when they voted for the man.
I think it's good that Obama is now focusing on Afghanistan. We've got Iraq to the point where it can now begin to stand on its own, and they want us out just as much as we want out. Putting the focus on Afghanistan means that now we are better entrenched, and are fighting on a single front instead of on two fronts.
Obama has always said he is going to send more troops to Afghanistan. Obama has never misleaded us over the Afghanistan issue, he has told us the truth about what he is going to do the whole time. This is not a compromise, this is a met promise.
Eh. I never heard him say ANYTHING about Afghanistan...
WHAT IS THE POINT? TO SHOW THAT AMERIKA IS AWSOME? We already know we are and the fucking government just loves to shove things in peoples faces [bombs]. The other coutries are the other kids playing in the sandbox. America is the bully that shoves the kids faces into the sand.
The point isnt whether he said he was going to or not, the point is, why send more troops to Afghanistan? Its not going to help anything.
That's because you watch Fox News??Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwood
fuck man he even threatened to attack Pakistan at one point, got damn
hahaha what the fuckQuote:
Originally Posted by CN3089
oh hey
evidently we're already attacking Pakistan to weed out the terrorists in it or something to that effect
regardless why hasn't the Pakistani government done something about it
We all know that Pakistan is probably the worst place to attack right? Since they are close allies with Iran, and Iran is friends with Russia, and Russia is friends with China, and China is friends with us, so we have a rotation of attacks going around. This is where WWIII Starts.
Dane, gtfo my politics. You live in upsidedown land. I don't argue about your politics. I don't know who your prime minister is (or if Australia even has a prime minister or what), and you don't see me sticking my nose into your elections, or telling you that you're fucked. (But you'll be dead soon too. Fucking kangaroos.)
>:|
Well good, we are in Afganistan for a good reason. Don't know if any of you remember but like 8 years ago a terrorist group based and operating with the Afgan government stole some planes and crashed them into the centers of our cities. No big deal.
Any other country would do worse. I can nigh guarantee it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGraham
i dunno bro sweden seems p chillQuote:
Originally Posted by Dwood
^ Seems people have forgotten this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
i highly doubt thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Dwood
the US seems to have a boner for showing off its military prowess and general power over anything in the world ever
we do worse than most countries, sorry
any other first world country (Great Britain, etc) that would have gone in would be out by now if they were in our position
errr- they wouldn't have gotten into this position at this point in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huero
If you're at all familiar with European history than I think you understand what global power meant for Europe, and why you can't thus claim that they would be more responsible with it.
But, alas, his original claim is a massive farce. How we compare to other countries in terms of ethics and systems is irrelevant and obsessing over it is counter-productive. You're not trying to be the best country at any given time, you're trying to be the best country humanly possible.
Unless the constituents of that country happen to be devoted chauvinistic douchelords.
So that gives you the right to occupy the country 8 years? I think you should all go and take a look at the reasons US invaded Afghanistan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
Also, huero, UK did remove troops from Afghanistan, we were tired with Americas bullshit "yah well leave soon"
No, the permission of the Afghan government does. ~hthQuote:
Originally Posted by Limited
Uh no, they actually want the US out, hence why I've been mention AAs and transfer of power that has already happened with the UK groups.
"Mr Obama telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai to inform him of the troops increase."
-Not to ask, but to inform him.
We shouldn't be in there for 8 years, but we did have Bush. Obama has to clean up the mess, so yes, we need to stay in there longer and do what we should have done since we liberated the people now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
I could care less about the reasons we invaded Afganistan.
They allowed Bin Laden to use Afganistan for a base of operations. Bin Laden attacked us. We gave the Taliban the choice to hand him over. They refused. We went in. They fought alongside the group that killed 3,000 American civilians, including family of people I know and am friends with.
That's enough for me.
FTFYQuote:
Originally Posted by Limited
Considering Bin Laden isnt even in Afghanistan him getting killing/captured in the country has a 0% of success.
Also, considering "war on terror" started in Afghanistan, and was one of the main reasons you guys moved on to Iraq.
I dont blame you all for your actions, considering your country is renowned for having appalling foreign policy.
Bush has been out of office for less than a month and being are already using him as a scapegoat, you do realise that its not only up to Bush to give the order? It has to go through congress too.
sup extended executive powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
i'm on your side why are you guys overruling my points :(
Afghan war maybe not Iraqi though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR
It doesn't matter if Bin Laden is in Afghanistan. We went to war there, we helped them form their own government, we need to do our part to ensure the government can survive until it's independent. If we let it go to rot, then what was the point if it's going to end up like before or worse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
What does it matter about Iraq? It was a mistake, but I fail to see what your implying it has to do with the war in Afghanistan.
Just because Bush is being used as a scapegoat, doesn't mean he's not at fault for some things which happened. Things may not be up to Bush, but he's a major factor into what does happen and what is sent to Congress. His administration fucked up. You can't shove it under the rug, you have to set things right again.
while i agree with you Masterz
about the Afghanistan thing
there's not much we can do to help if they don't want us there
That's exactly what people said (myself included) about Iraq, which has been undeniably been getting better. I absolutely hate that we're involved in two wars at once, but especially since we've managed to prevent Iraq from shitting on itself and dying I think we have a responsibility to see things through. Also, I'm pretty sure that unlike in Iraq, people don't want us to leave so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huero
It's a shock to the system. Imagine if some other country came over to where you lived quite contently and started a coup? Of course you would be against it. But then after the dust settles, everything is better for nearly everyone? Then how would you feel?Quote:
Originally Posted by teh lag
Yeah, but we got much better results out of negotiating with the tribal and militia leaders than we did with just deploying more troops. Considering our military likes to brag about how it can hit insects from orbit or whatever, I think it ought to be understood that we could achieve similar effects with a much smaller ground presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by teh lag
Not to mention the lack of sustainability and gruesome ethics of the whole venture.
he never ever concealed his intentions of going into Afghanistan mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneO'Roo
ever.
he still wants out of Iraq, and now where at least not going into IRAN...
he's not as bad as ya think, ideally we shouldnt be in afghanistan either but it's better then having fucking 3 wars at the same time.
you didnt tell us shit, because we already fucking knew it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mass
Sadam wouldn't negotiate, nor would the Taliban when we tried.
Also polar, it's not fair to ask how we would feel if another nation invaded our country and told us how to govern ourselves. Our government doesn't encourage people to throw acid in the faces of little girls, or stone and hang women in public. If I lived in that country, I would welcome American forces.
Afghanistan is actually worth it, and truth be told I'd rather be sent there than Iraq. At least we know (for the most part) who we're fighting, the Taliban and their lot; that and we have a legit reason for still being there. Iraq should be able to look after itself without the US and its allies hanging around like a bad smell, but Afghanistan is still vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneO'Roo
e/ just thought I'd remind everyone that Afghanistan has sweet bugger all by way of oil, so it's not like that played any part whatsoever in that war
e2/ the Afghans did want us there, so I dunno where you got that idea from, Huero. The only ones they were apprehensive about were the Brits, understandably (colonial wars and all that), but once they realised they were there to help they got over it.
If anyone's in the market for a good read on what the place was like when they first went in, check out Bloody Heroes by Damien Lewis. Really puts things in perspective.
culture's differentQuote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
that's normal to them
the only reason they would care is outer exposure anyway, if they were exposed to something such as the american culture
That's normal to extremists, not the average shepherd or villager.
True I suppose
leaving this topic i apparently don't know enough :(
Not the governments, fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
The militia and insurgency units that form after governmental collapse in preparation for civil war or perhaps for self defense. I'm not talking about negotiating within the context of the war, but within the context of occupation.
Last I checked the Taliban controlled the government Pre-Invasion.
Actually, wikipedia states.
Quote:
The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان ṭālibān, also anglicised as Taleban; translation: "students") is a Sunni Islamist, predominately Pashtun movement[3] that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until 2001, when its leaders were removed from power by Northern Alliance and NATO forces.
Hey guys, meet me in my backyard at 9:00, we're going to go overthrow the government via a web forum!
Don't forget the greenday CDs!
:ssh:Quote:
Originally Posted by legionaire45
Did I say to assume you were an Iraqi prior to the war? No. I said, imagine if the place that you so contently live in (in this case, America) was occupied by a different nation with different ideals from us. Stow your "but American military is da best," I'm talking hypothetically here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
Of course, the people in power and the patriots would be against it, and the general population would dislike them due to culture clash. Much like how the insurgents and radicals were against it.
First things first... I read like the first 3 pages...
Ever since I saw the movie Charlie Wilsons War and did some minor research into the facts behind that whole event, I have a completely different view on our government and the problems it faces.
The important things I got from that movie and research was that the reason everything over there is so fucked up in the first place is because we left it like that long ago we didn't fix the mess. No education system was put into place and many of the elders and older people died fighting a war that they wanted to fight, but was easy to blame on us because of how we funded it without sending troops.
So popular beliefe was that we used them to fight our war, and fundamentalist radicals enforced this idea further (simillar to how everyone on this board thinks there right, except they were weak and uneducated so it was easy to spread misinformation).
So this ideaology grew, and got worse over time.
The best quote from Charlie Wilson that gets used at the end of the movie wasIt makes me look at the whole middle east conflict much differently, while I believe much of what happened in iraq wasn't necessary, once we were there if we just up and left things would have almost definately gotten worse, bush fucked up, but he could have fucked up way worse than he did.Quote:
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world. And the people who deserved the credit are the ones who made the sacrifice. And then we fucked up the endgame.
As for Obama, lets just hope he plays a good endgame.
E: Recap, in short there is no real way for us to just leave in any short ammount of time, and doing so would be way more catastrophic to us and others than actually staying and fixing things would be.
The only thing that does worry me I admit is, if we can even fix things, or did we already go too far, and perhaps leaving before we screw anything else up might be better. Obama seems to think its fixable... the thing is even if its not fixable and we do leave, theres always going to be that threat... leaving was what created that threat in the first place.
I think you're misinterpreting my post. Or rather, how can you ask us to think how we would feel if our country were to be occupied by a different nation, without us even knowing what the state of our country is? It doesn't have to be iraq, it can afganistan, pakistan, gaza strip, colombia or some african nation in civil war. If things are bad, I would't care who came in, long as it was someone better than before. If the Cuban government took over america, I would probably be pretty pissed, because things are good here. If I was living in afganistan, and Sadam came marching in to take us over, I'd probably be a lot happier, even if things got pretty shitty. If Canada took over America, well, I wouldn't be worried, but I probably wouldn't be outraged either.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
I don't know where you got the idea I think American military "is the best". The military is a tool of our government, and like I, the Afghanis and the Iraqi's were happy to have us roll in. Then of course, the insurgents helped bring everything down to a shitfest. Things have to get worse before they get better, and the general public opinion you hear about have got cold feet once the going got tough.
Stop right there. You're reading into my posts too much to try and prove a moot point.
All I said was that America coming in to lollerrape Saddam was a shock to their system, and to make an example, tried to put things into perspective with a hypothetical comparison.
Whaaaa? You brought up a stupid comparison. And you're telling me to stop posting because I disagree with it? I don't know what your reason for having a bad attitude towards me is today, maybe it's from my posts you warned the other day? If it is then get over it. Snaf and I spar on the forums but we don't let it spill over into other threads (or our friendship). If you don't want to take a page out of my book, take it out of his and don't degrade the argument and thread over a stupid grudge.
Onto the man topic....
Any change of government and lifestyle to a people is a going to be a shock to their system. It was for the US when we first gained our independence, and it was a shocking change in government and life for the Germans and Japanese after WW2.
Your hypothetical comparison would make sense if our country was as barbaric nation. You say imagine if the place I contently lived in was suddenly occupied, what would I feel? I'd be angry, unless it was a change for the better. The difference is, in neither Iraq or Afghanistan were the people satisfied with their lives. They CHEERED when we liberated them.
To simplify your comparison, you're asking how would we feel if a the government came in and told us all we had to get rid of our old consoles and have PS2s. Well if I had an Atari, hell ya, I'd be happy for the change. If I had a 360 I'd say fuck no. Afghanistan and Iraq are the people with Ataris, the US is the people with the 360s. Do you understand what I mean when your comparison is invalid?
And I don't even know how Iraq came up in our convo, seeing as how I was talking about Afghanistan in the OP you quoted.
Masters I have no idea where you get your information from, but the Afghans and Iraqis definitely did not welcome Americans with arms open.
Even now, its pretty 50/50 about whether they like us being their. The majority of people are now just wary of the forces in Afghanistan. They are worried that the troops are attracting Taliban forces to attack and innocent people are getting caught in the crossfire. And they have ever right to be worried, considering the highest amount of casualties in both wars are innocent civilians.
You all need to stop watching the news and start watching independent documentaries, which show what REALLY is going on.
I'll tell you why I dont like the fact more troops are being sent it.
Firstly, if the forces there are being stretched and is causing a big problem and our forces are being killed because of the storage, then yes I agree something needs to be done.
Sending more troops in is sending more troops into harms way.
Right now my best interests is within the men and women that make up the soldiers that fight for us. The middle east will never be perfect, the way of life there will always be less of the western world. Its good we went there attempting to help them, but we cant afford (resources wise) to be in there indefinitely holding their hand.
Woah there, a good majority of those "independent documentaries" are made by anomaly-hunting conspiracy theorists with a political agenda. What you should do is stop watching those and start reading peer-reviewed papers which analyse both the little details and the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
E:
ughQuote:
Originally Posted by Limited
I wonder what the people over there REALLY think... It's not hard to believe that they don't like us, and that they weren't thrilled when we showed up in the first place, but on the other hand, it isn't hard to believe that a majority DID want us there, and that the liberal media's been playing up the jihadist, death-to-america angle. Hmm... we need some sort of raw feed news station. Screw toning down the violence and drama, I want to see the real deal.
I'll bet nobody in this thread really knows what's going on over there, including myself.
My friend is in the air force, and he'll be deploying to Iraq some time this year. I'll ask him what it's like when he gets there.
Here's one from "the peace keeping mission" in Afghanistan...Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoodedsmack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2r3C0PJ1LM
Heh, you should look up this thing called the crusades and shit, and British Empire. You might understand why the living standard has fallen in the ME. It's the fault of the European and British empiresQuote:
Originally Posted by Limited
not only that, but the Middle East was at a time technologically superior to most everyone in the old world
And there was a time when China dominated everyone else. Crusades fucked shit up, and then Imperialism made it worse. Europe screwed the Middle East and Africa over (and China), US and Great Britain screwed South America over.
Also, Limited, the Taliban would waltz right back into Afghanistan and take over within a decade if we left now. Then there would be the bad kind of dictatorship, at least just as much civilian killing, and we'd have another hostile country on our hands (Afghanistan right now is not a hostile nation, it just has hostiles in it, like Iraq...North Korea and Iran are hostile Nations). Also, there have always been more civilian casualties in war since World War II, where 95% of the deaths were civilian.
Also, why do you say "did not welcome Americans?" You are forgetting that it was a COALITION of primarily American and British forces that rolled over Iraq. Your country is just as guilty. We started it, UK followed (and then pulled a Russia on the deal). So I ask you, who's the more foolish? Is it the fool or the fool who follows him?
Patriotic garbage indeed.
Is there a good kind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Warsaw
Julius Caesar was a dictator. Abraham Lincoln was a dictator (effective, during the Civil War).
There is a difference between a dictator and a tyrant.
^Quote:
Originally Posted by Warsaw
We were talking about Iraq...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
Seriously? Link pl0xQuote:
Originally Posted by Warsaw
Martial law was declared during the Civil War...seeing as the President is also Commander and Chief, that makes him a de facto dictator, if not by name of office (most dictators don't have "Dictator" as their office anyways).
Under "Homefront":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln
Under "Examples":
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html
Finally:
http://www.heritage.org/research/nat...rity/hl834.cfm
Need I say more?
So dane told us something we already knew?
kewl tred
Dude, did you even watch the news? I'm not going to go digging up pictures of people cheering in Kabul when the American came in shortly after 9-11Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
We weren't greeted as liberators in Iraq, but we were sort of in Afghanistan. It could depend on the region of Afghanistan, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337
Well, Afghanistan was in the middle of a civil war when we invaded, soQuote:
Originally Posted by ExAm
Both sides probably looked at us and went "thank god, reinforcements!"Quote:
Originally Posted by CN3089
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...s/emot-911.gif taliban were too busy getting the shit bombed out of them OORAH http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...s/emot-911.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by p0lar_bear
^:lmao:
Afghanistan is where we need to wrap this all up because it was where it started and it was being fucked when we moved to Iraq.
Obama is in a shitter already. He's got a fucked over economy in his hands with a war in the Middle East. Not much he can do because if we retreat, Afghanistan will fuck itself over and waste all of the resources, money, and good soldiers we used on it. Not to mention, if we leave now without at least that part of Al-Qeada subdued, we may also experience another 911. Apart from that, Dane, please refrain from acting like you're in a superior country compared to ours. All of our countries have their ups and downs. We have freedoms that y'all don't and vice versa. Knock it off. You're annoying me with this type of talk.