let's have a POLITIK DISCUSHIN

[Bodzilla]

look the problem with libertarianism is quite simply this.

It owns everything to the bottom line, and everything else is not important, and we've seen and experienced the consequences of such thinking.
Under a tighter controlled financial market we wouldn't of had the GFC.

[n00b1n8R]

hey ross are you going to tell more people irl how you owned people on the internet with posts longer than any assignment you ever submitted during your aborted stint at university?

[Bodzilla]

:siren:SHOTS FIRED:siren:

[Dwood]

you would have to go through many long transitional stages, but the most drastic improvement would likely come from the first few stages which are also some of the easiest to implement.

"freedom" is a really abstract concept and i hate when people sling the word around without clarification. freedom from what? how far does it extend? should hate speech be legal? should telling someone the routine of somebody you know they despise, and then how to make a carbomb, be considered acceptable?

Well, with clarification, my post would have been significantly longer... I think you're trying to say that government is the one to define what's right and what's wrong.

should someone be able to use deceitful half-truths and confusing language to swindle somebody with poorer education into blowing their life savings on some useless trinket (alternative medicine bullshit being a huge one here)?

I understand your argument, and do have family that buys in to crap like alt. medicine, but I just don't see the problem with offering services (bs or not). People should be able to spend their money how they want and where they want, when they want. Without that right to be protected, we may as well be living in a communistic society. Our society has a lot of problems, yes, but I personally believe that as far as things go, this is the best we've had it in the entire history of the world. We are responsible for ourselves.

[=sw=warlord]

I came into this thread thinking it might be about something important, some sort of bloody awful struggle or any other kind of important subject.
I was disappointed.

[rossmum]

hey ross are you going to tell more people irl how you owned people on the internet with posts longer than any assignment you ever submitted during your aborted stint at university?

this isn't a thing i do though. are you projecting again?

Well, with clarification, my post would have been significantly longer... I think you're trying to say that government is the one to define what's right and what's wrong.

i'm trying to say that government is the one to provide the necessary social support, which is less about 'right' and 'wrong' than you think - until it comes to business, at any rate

I understand your argument, and do have family that buys in to crap like alt. medicine, but I just don't see the problem with offering services (bs or not). People should be able to spend their money how they want and where they want, when they want. Without that right to be protected, we may as well be living in a communistic society. Our society has a lot of problems, yes, but I personally believe that as far as things go, this is the best we've had it in the entire history of the world. We are responsible for ourselves.

we live in a world where allegedly educated, affluent people with instant access to high technology and scientific research will still swear up and down that homeopathy works, acupuncture actually has any basis in reality, and that their lives matter to some nebulous all-powerful entity that has the power to create the universe and yet when they fail to intervene and stop cousin johnny's gambling problem it's because reasons.

we are the most exceptionally ignorant society that ever existed. we have access to resources that previous civilisations could literally not even have dreamed of, we have knowledge at hand which people elsewhere in the world still don't know of, and yet here we are defending some fucking fraud's "right" to sell magical magnetic rocks to retirees with back pain or some sick rip-off artist's "right" to exploit some grieving, desperate mother's vulnerability by telling them they can put them in touch with their dead child.

it's disgusting, and completely indefensible. it is also a complete brake on progress. we are pissing away our limited resources on useless junk and frivolity that we would not even miss if we hadn't been born into such a repulsively spoiled, shitty culture.

e: "we are responsible for ourselves" is an echo of the old model of social welfare, where people are expected to shut up and deal with their problems and if they can't then they can just go crawl into a corner and die. it's a selfish, shitty attitude and far removed from reality. not everyone has their shit together, and in fact remarkably few people genuinely do.

[Dwood]

we are the most exceptionally ignorant society that ever existed.

That is an enormous exaggeration with no facts behind it. Even if the population count were the same as it was in the 1700's, the number of people who can read and do basic math, even algebra, are extremely higher than ever before. Our lack of knowledge is something we can only blame ourselves for. We can't blame anyone but ourselves for not doing proper research before spending money on something ridiculous.

If I buy a bad computer or whatever, that's my fault for not doing the research on that brand/product. SURE, outside factors INFLUENCE the decisions, but I get the feeling you look at people as a bunch of dolts and idiots. You, sir, need a reality check. There are many idiots in the world. But more than ever, there are GENIUSES who are working HARD to make livings in honest ways. There always have been, and always will be people who make it sound like they are doing something magical when they aren't.

it's disgusting, and completely indefensible. it is also a complete brake on progress. we are pissing away our limited resources on useless junk and frivolity that we would not even miss if we hadn't been born into such a repulsively spoiled, shitty culture.

1. MASSIVE exaggeration. 2. It is entirely defensible if you'd stop exaggerating, and look back at my original post where I say if you don't like your situation, DO SOMETHING. Don't just sit there and whine about how it's the government's job to fix everything.

e: "we are responsible for ourselves" is an echo of the old model of social welfare, where people are expected to shut up and deal with their problems and if they can't then they can just go crawl into a corner and die. it's a selfish, shitty attitude and far removed from reality. not everyone has their shit together, and in fact remarkably few people genuinely do.

Quantify "shit together"- it's such a loose term, and your use of 'remarkably few people genuinely do' also reiterates my belief that you have a skewed thought pattern to think that the general masses are idiots, incapable of making their own decisions. You can't bring down the people on top while bringing the up the ones on bottom. I have yet to see any society excel that attempts to do it. I ask for examples and proof where bringing down those who are rich makes the lives of those on the bottom better.

What society is capable of taking out the rich? None. There always have been, and always will be, so long as we are human, inequality in life, money, skill, mental ability.

[Patrickssj6]

I came into this thread thinking it might be about something important, some sort of bloody awful struggle or any other kind of important subject.
I was disappointed.

it's some issue between ross and dwood.

I tl;dr out of this

[Skyline]

^

Only thing I got out of it is this:

That is an enormous exaggeration with no facts behind it.

Have some faith bro.

[Warsaw]

I came into this thread thinking it might be about something important, some sort of bloody awful struggle or any other kind of important subject.
I was disappointed.

Important? You mean like concentration camps in Greece or essential neo-Nazis taking power in Hungary? Pfff, who cares about that! Let's be angry at members of a marginal political party that don't even understand what their party ideal is.