Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
...
I didn't say Halo's netcode specifically is the best it possibly could be and anything else is shit. I said I'd prefer a server-side hit detection model over client-side because of the obvious disadvantages of a client-side model. I said that because you said this
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
but in all honesty you know what's the most fair?
client-side.
Furthermore, as I've stated repeatedly, there are other games out there using server-side hit detection which is far superior to Halo's and require almost no leading unless your ping is extremely high. Therefore, if one was to try and improve Halo's hit detection, I think it would be best to keep it server-side.
Host advantage is completely irrelevant on a dedicated server, so I have no idea why you keep coming back to that. Some people might have lower ping than others, but nobody's going to have 0.
Now do I think Halo's current netcode is completely perfect? No. But I'd hardly call it broken either. None of us here would have played it for years on end if it was.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pooky
...
I didn't say Halo's netcode specifically is the best it possibly could be and anything else is shit.
uhm... I didn't say you did!!
Please tell me where in this post I said you specifically said Halo's netcode. I specifically said you said a netcode that requires leading, which just happens to be the kind of netcode Halo uses!
Quote:
I said I'd prefer a server-side hit detection model over client-side because of the obvious disadvantages of a client-side model.
No you didn't say sever-side detection is the best. You specifically said leading is the most fair. Which is a type of sever-side, but you didn't say server-side in general.
Halo 3 uses a pseudo-client-side (I've tested this), which is still server-side. You notice how sometimes shots that land don't hit? Yeah, that's not client-side detection!
Quote:
Furthermore, as I've stated repeatedly, there are other games out there using server-side hit detection which is far superior to Halo's and require almost no leading unless your ping is extremely high.
So why do you hate Halo 3's so much, considering it's server-side?
Quote:
Therefore, if one was to try and improve Halo's hit detection, I think it would be best to keep it server-side.
Then what do you have against me saying this server-side hack would fix halo? Do other people's opinions bother you if they're not absolutely linear with your own?
Quote:
Host advantage is completely irrelevant on a dedicated server, so I have no idea why you keep coming back to that. Some people might have lower ping than others, but nobody's going to have 0.
People with a shit connection will still have a disadvantage, and I've stressed this. It's not specific to host/client, it's foolish to think that. n00b can't have a serious game in a modacity server because of the shit ping!
Quote:
Now do I think Halo's current netcode is completely perfect? No. But I'd hardly call it broken either.
That I and many others will have to disagree with! The discrepancy between varying connections is absolutely ridiculous.
The results of a game between two hardcore players, a 300 pinger and a 60 pinger doesn't mean shit, because one has an obvious advantage.
but.. of course, I've heard you say "OH HOST DOESNT MEAN SHIT, I HATE WHEN PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT HOST ADVANTAGE" in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you still have that absurd mindset. Do you still feel this way?
Quote:
None of us here would have played it for years on end if it was.
Halo is full of so many people who don't know what the fuck they're doing it's easy to jump in and get 3 consecutive running riots. The franchise is so mainstream the game's always got bad players for vets to destroy with absolute ease.
Vets jump in because they can dominate and have the advantage of knowing how to deal with the game's flaws.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
I've never seen a server-side hit detection that doesn't require leading, if only in the most miniscule sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
Halo 3 uses a pseudo-client-side (I've tested this), which is still server-side. You notice how sometimes shots that land don't hit? Yeah, that's not client-side detection!
I bet those shots would hit if you lead them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
So why do you hate Halo 3's so much, considering it's server-side?
I don't hate Halo 3's. Halo 1's just seems to provide more consistency. I've seen some really bonkers stuff happen on Halo 3 online, where Halo 1's leading system is at least predictable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
I don't have anything against you. I just said that I don't think Halo was broken in the first place. We could be having a civil discussion about it, but for some reason you decided to take offense and start posting with lots of exclamation marks !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
People with a shit connection will still have a disadvantage, and I've stressed this. It's not specific to host/client, it's foolish to think that.
Right, but the disadvantage would be severely reduced if you were playing on a game where the actual leading required is far less (see: Quake 3). Honestly, I think just increasing the data rate from server to players would do a lot to alleviate the problem, but I don't know how possible it would be to do something like that with Halo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
That I and many others will have to disagree with! The discrepancy between varying connections is absolutely ridiculous.
Of course it is. But the nice thing about a leading system is that it's possible to compensate for high pings without getting some of the annoying inconsistencies you get with other models. Sure it won't ever be 100% effective, but I'd rather that than the aforementioned wall-shots. If you want to be seriously competitive, play on a low ping server :\
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
but.. of course, I've heard you say "OH HOST DOESNT MEAN SHIT, I HATE WHEN PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT HOST ADVANTAGE" in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you still have that absurd mindset. Do you still feel this way?
You'll have to quote me on that, because I don't remember ever saying that. If I did, it must have been way back in the Halo Trial days when I was a complete noob and hosting listen servers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
Halo is full of so many people who don't know what the fuck they're doing it's easy to jump in and get 3 consecutive running riots. The franchise is so mainstream the game's always got bad players for vets to destroy with absolute ease.
Vets jump in because they can dominate and have the advantage of knowing how to deal with the game's flaws.
Sure, but you could say that about almost any game. I'm not against a hack of this kind being released. In fact, I was supporting it back when it was first announced and you were against it. So I'm really not sure where you're coming from here. I just don't think Halo's netcode is totally broken. Gearbox had mandates that they were required to do, and 56k support was one of them. What came out of it had to be the best solution they could come up with at the time.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pooky
I've never seen a server-side hit detection that doesn't require leading, if only in the most minisculesense.
Half life 1 deathmatch actually required reverse-leading.
Quote:
I bet those shots would hit if you lead them.
Halo 2? Yes. Halo 3? Nope. Shots landing on a player standing still. How would you lead that? Halo 3 had some of the best server-side hit detection I've seen. Oddities include shots not registering, a shot that doesn't land on the player's screen registering on the server, and shots not landing if killed before they have a chance to register (the latter fixed in reach)
Quote:
I don't hate Halo 3's. Halo 1's just seems to provide more consistency. I've seen some really bonkers stuff happen on Halo 3 online, where Halo 1's leading system is at least predictable.
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a very good understanding of Halo 3's system. Shots redirect, players get shot behind walls because of projectile redirection, bullets may not hit on a the player's screen if the spread on the server says it hits. There are a couple of oddities I have absolutely no explanation for.
Quote:
I don't have anything against you. I just said that I don't think Halo was broken in the first place. We could be having a civil discussion about it, but for some reason you decided to take offense and start posting with lots of exclamation marks !!
I've found sarcasm to be an extremely effective way of making points. Perhaps I use it a bit too often, but hey it's effective in most cases!
either way, I offer an apology if I started sounding like a cock nubbling jizz guzzler.
Quote:
Right, but the disadvantage would be severely reduced if you were playing on a game where the actual leading required is far less (see: Quake 3). Honestly, I think just increasing the data rate from server to players would do a lot to alleviate the problem, but I don't know how possible it would be to do something like that with Halo
I don't know shit about Quake 3 other than the fact that in Quake Live, if I shoot someone, it hits. If that's server-side detection, it's very well done and more games need to use that system. I don't see why Halo couldn't have a similar system, the current system feels very slapped-in.
Quote:
Of course it is. But the nice thing about a leading system is that it's possible to compensate for high pings without getting some of the annoying inconsistencies you get with other models. Sure it won't ever be 100% effective, but I'd rather that than the aforementioned wall-shots. If you want to be seriously competitive, play on a low ping server :\
I consider it a case of pick your poison. Shot behind walls, leading, all that BS. Personally, I prefer the sauerbrauten model of detection. I suggest checking it out, I have zero complaints about the netcode. It's simple, understandable and from what I've seen, extremely fair for all players.
Quote:
You'll have to quote me on that, because I don't remember ever saying that. If I did, it must have been way back in the Halo Trial days when I was a complete noob and hosting listen servers.
yeah it was a bit of a while back
Quote:
Sure, but you could say that about almost any game.
With trueskill in place, one can't jump into a game of Halo 3 or Reach and expect to dominate everything in sight, the game is designed in such a way to match people with similar skills and stats, removing skill gap so everybody has a chance of having a good time.
I'd PREFER a custom games browser, but that's a fucking pipe dream at this point.
Quote:
I'm not against a hack of this kind being released. In fact, I was supporting it back when it was first announced and you were against it. So I'm really not sure where you're coming from here.
I believe my argument was there would be an unfair advantage between people who use it and people who don't. However I feel like if this hack were released, people would catch on and start using it regularly.. this hack is something special, and I've honestly been hoping to see something like this for a long, long time.
Quote:
I just don't think Halo's netcode is totally broken. Gearbox had mandates that they were required to do, and 56k support was one of them. What came out of it had to be the best solution they could come up with at the time.
It's far less broken than Halo Xbox's netcode, for sure, and in many ways far less fluxy than Halo 2's which got super fucked up at ranges past red reticule (Having to lead shots across coagulation with a hitscan BR). Still, it's far from perfect and could have been improved. As I've said, fair netcodes eliminate discrepancies between connections, and the requirement of leading is a blatant one.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
Half life 1 deathmatch actually required reverse-leading.
Alright well, you got me there o.O
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
Halo 2? Yes. Halo 3? Nope. Shots landing on
a player standing still. How would you lead that? Halo 3 had some of the best server-side hit detection I've seen. Oddities include shots not registering, a shot that doesn't land on the player's screen registering on the server, and shots not landing if killed before they have a chance to register (the latter fixed in reach)
That sounds like packet loss to me, but other than that idk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
I don't know shit about Quake 3 other than the fact that in Quake Live, if I shoot someone, it hits. If that's server-side detection, it's very well done and more games need to use that system. I don't see why Halo couldn't have a similar system, the current system feels very slapped-in.
I'm just kind of making an educated guess here, but I think the deal is that Halo uses some very slow data rates so people with 56k connections would be able to play online.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
With trueskill in place, one can't jump into a game of Halo 3 or Reach and expect to dominate everything in sight, the game is designed in such a way to match people with similar skills and stats, removing skill gap so everybody has a chance of having a good time.
You'd think that, but idk. Last time I played Reach with some friends from work, we got put into a bunch of matches with complete morons and destroyed them. Maybe my rank was really low since before that, all I did for a while on Reach was grief and teamkill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3h m00kz
Still, it's far from perfect and could have been improved. As I've said, fair netcodes eliminate discrepancies between connections, and the requirement of leading is a blatant one.
It's absolutely not perfect, but I think it's the best solution we could have gotten at the time, given the constraints gearbox was under. I mean, look at H2V if you want to see what an absolutely terrible netcode is like.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pooky
You'd think that, but idk. Last time I played Reach with some friends from work, we got put into a bunch of matches with complete morons and destroyed them. Maybe my rank was really low since before that, all I did for a while on Reach was grief and teamkill.
TrueSkill team matchmaking goes a bit further than just looking at your personal "known" TrueSkill it also takes into account all other peoples TrueSkill. For example in team games (Red vs Blue) TrueSkill will add the most certain Level data and the most uncertain level data it has about you as an individiual and sum that level information with those known from your team mates. Then it will do the same for any opposing team and try to match the best possible fit. Meaning if 2 out of 4 players in your team have an highly uncertain skill level, it could very well be that the "match experience" for you as a more "known player to the TrueSkill system" is pretty bad, since there is a chance you get matched up with either noobs, or dominating pros. However, TrueSkill, according to it's math made the right match. Keep in mind if you keep playing with this team for a long time, the match experience should (theoretical) get better. (leading to more draws over time)
As you pointed out different playlist keep track of their own level.
As for this topic, I wouldn't mind having a bit of a fix, I can not compete on any US/EU server playing from China with a not so stable ping ranging from 350 - 500.
While giving me a lower ping certainly brings out a completely different outcome.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
doesn't matter what mods you use to try and fix leading playing well with a 300 ping is asking for a lot
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sean Aero
As for this topic, I wouldn't mind having a bit of a fix, I can not compete on any US/EU server playing from China with a not so stable ping ranging from 350 - 500.
While giving me a lower ping certainly brings out a completely different outcome.
It would be impossible to make a mod to fix high ping issues. Even in newer games playing over 200 ping become a chore.
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Halo Asia, coming soon....
Re: Anti-latency (server-side hit detection / correction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rook
It would be impossible to make a mod to fix high ping issues. Even in newer games playing over 200 ping become a chore.
There are inevitably going to be issues.
However, the level of playability could very well change.
