Wikileaks Collateral Murder Video

[PenGuin1362]

Urgg... Again people, needless death should never be viewed as "welp, what can you do".

No really what can you do. We are firing the most lethal and effective weapons known to man that have ranges varying from 800 yards to 4 miles, not to mnetion artillery and air support. You can't always control who gets hit and who doesn't. Polar said tbis perfectly. You guys crtisize their actions now being able to take the time to evalute the situation but you weren't there in their shoes trying make a decision with only moments to act. This is war guys, this is what happens. What the fuck do you think happened during ww2. You think innocent deaths are high now? Think back to the days of carpet bombing, random artillery strikes, IN CENTRAL EUROPE. We should be happy how low the civilian casualties have gotten. However, this is war, decisions need to be made under pressure none of us will ever understand and in such short timing. Accidents happen. We can't control everything

[=sw=warlord]

No really what can you do. We are firing the most lethal and effective weapons known to man that have ranges varying from 800 yards to 4 miles, not to mnetion artillery and air support.
We also have the most advanced computing equipment and software ever to increase the accuracy.
Funny how we can create machines to build electronic systems on a nano scale and yet we still cannot aim lumps of lead in the correct direction with greater accuracy.
You can't always control who gets hit and who doesn't. Polar said tbis perfectly. You guys crtisize their actions now being able to take the time to evalute the situation but you weren't there in their shoes trying make a decision with only moments to act. This is war guys, this is what happens.
These people are supposed to be trained for exactly these scenarios, it would be very unwise to try and compare your average person to those who are supposed to be experts on using the very equipment their using.
What the fuck do you think happened during ww2. You think innocent deaths are high now? Think back to the days of carpet bombing, random artillery strikes, IN CENTRAL EUROPE.
Are you honestly trying to compare the warfare of WW2 to current warfare?
That has got to be the most fucked up retort anyone could possibly make.
Just because it was worse in the past doe's not excuse the fucks ups of the present.
In WW2, aircrew were lucky to hit targets with appreciable accuracy where as these days we have fucking missiles that can hit a target within a few inches.
We should be happy how low the civilian casualties have gotten. However, this is war, decisions need to be made under pressure none of us will ever understand and in such short timing. Accidents happen. We can't control everything
Maybe true, but there is nothing wrong with anyone wanting a greater standard of practice.

.

[thehoodedsmack]

Why are people in this thread defending the soldiers? Their actions, that is, point and click murder, was not justified, and pretending it was does no favor to their credibility.

Firstly, to address the "they were in a combat zone, they were stressed out and needed to act fast" statement:

This is just one more reason why they shouldn't have been making the call. With rampant military spending going down, it would be nice to see something practical being done: better cameras and a video feed back to base. If they haven't made that change by now I'd be very disappointed. If indeed there was a threat, their commanders may have made the same call, or, the second opinion could have noticed there were no weapons, and lives could have been saved. I'm sure this would inconvenience the pilots temporarily, especially if they were in a situation where there was a hidden threat, but always remember that a soldier's job involves dieing, and they should be prepared for that when enlisting. A civilian's job is not.

Now of course, you have to examine this from both sides as well. It is their country, but it also is a war-zone. So anyone who wasn't a war photographer or reporter shouldn't have been in the area. And journalists who cover combat should also be expectant of death, as it's a very real part of their job as well. Both parties involves can learn something from this, and I hope to God they implemented change after they realized what a mess had been made.

But you can't defend the military for this, and you can't defend the civilians, because they're both to blame. You can call them out, that's for sure, and that's best thing you can do. Because recognizing faults is the best way to improve on them. Never defend your actions. Instead, recognize that you aren't perfect, and that if someone has a problem with what you've done, address it, and see what can be done. You aren't perfect, and neither is anyone else.

The same thing goes for defending others. Don't take sides. This is a discussion, not a debate.

[sleepy1212]

If you have never had someone try to kill you...stop posting.

You might have the right, but you don't have the experience to judge a soldier.

[=sw=warlord]

If you have never had someone try to kill you...stop posting.

You might have the right, but you don't have the experience to judge a soldier.

You ever had someone try to kill you?

[Limited]

Disgusting, shocking and appauling. Yes, this was a terrible thing to happen, and it is questionable whether they should have shot on them originally. I did not see any guns, or anything that could have been a gun. What sickens me, is after they are shot down, clearly some of them are dead, some are alive and crawling away. This is where the crimes (imo) occured, if someone is clearly disarmed, crawling away. Then you cannot 'finish them off'. Its illegal to shoot on them. This is a war, wars have international laws that have to be followed, yes insurgents dont follow them, they use these laws AGAINST us. Yet we cant stoop to their level, we have to follow them.

The fact the chopper gunner was saying "All you gotta do is pickup a weapon". Hes looking for a fight, hes looking for a reason to kill.

Now with shooting the van, to me they should have notified whoever they are talking to, that a vehicle has stopped. They should not have fired upon them, it was clear they were trying to pickup the body/help the guy survive. If they had weapons, or poked one out the window then yes shoot it. But you cannot assume its bad. You have to have proof.

Pilots and soldiers are trained to recognise weapons, they are trained to look at photos and videos and spot who is legit and who are suspicious people. In my opinon, this training failed with these two pilots and gunners.

We are all looking through the window, we dont know exactly what happened, we don't know what happened the day before to these soldiers, we dont know if they lose any of their friends.

Its shit like this, that makes blue on blue attacks happen, I'm not surprised its the US involved, considering all the friendly fire they cause.

Hindsight, is 20/20 vision...

[sleepy1212]

You ever had someone try to kill you?

Yes. and still i wouldn't compare those experiences with warfare.

[=sw=warlord]

Yes. and still i wouldn't compare those experiences with warfare.

Then why did you say those who have not experienced life threatening scenarios to leave the thread if you know already even if you have your life threatened it is not anywhere near the same?

[Good_Apollo]

Disgusting, shocking and appauling. Yes, this was a terrible thing to happen, and it is questionable whether they should have shot on them originally. I did not see any guns, or anything that could have been a gun. What sickens me, is after they are shot down, clearly some of them are dead, some are alive and crawling away. This is where the crimes (imo) occured, if someone is clearly disarmed, crawling away. Then you cannot 'finish them off'. Its illegal to shoot on them. This is a war, wars have international laws that have to be followed, yes insurgents dont follow them, they use these laws AGAINST us. Yet we cant stoop to their level, we have to follow them.

The fact the chopper gunner was saying "All you gotta do is pickup a weapon". Hes looking for a fight, hes looking for a reason to kill.

Now with shooting the van, to me they should have notified whoever they are talking to, that a vehicle has stopped. They should not have fired upon them, it was clear they were trying to pickup the body/help the guy survive. If they had weapons, or poked one out the window then yes shoot it. But you cannot assume its bad. You have to have proof.

Pilots and soldiers are trained to recognise weapons, they are trained to look at photos and videos and spot who is legit and who are suspicious people. In my opinon, this training failed with these two pilots and gunners.

We are all looking through the window, we dont know exactly what happened, we don't know what happened the day before to these soldiers, we dont know if they lose any of their friends.

Its shit like this, that makes blue on blue attacks happen, I'm not surprised its the US involved, considering all the friendly fire they cause.

Hindsight, is 20/20 vision...

Lawl, yes in war you should never assume anything: you need to take the time to analyze the situation, draw maps, ask the locals around for information, gather some informants and even perhaps get some fingerprints and IDs *BLAM* Oops your dead, I guess that teenager behind the fruit stand had an AK under his cloak and just killed 4 civilians and 3 soldiers while wounding two others. Also, that guy next to him that was holding that baby also had an RPG under the table and just blew up your Humvee killing the driver and 2 others inside.

In a war against a guerrilla force that has no regards for civilian casualties, the ROE are pretty much shoot first ask questions later unless there's some obvious red flags saying otherwise. This threads borderline funny now.

[thehoodedsmack]

If you have never had someone try to kill you...stop posting.

You might have the right, but you don't have the experience to judge a soldier.

You are hindering discussion, and restricting the development of new ideas and theories. Understand that you are slowing down the advancement of the discussion, and please try to contribute.