If I Were A Halo 2 Vista Developer

[ejburke]

I can still hate every last Microsoft product manager, right? Good.

[Roostervier]

I agree on this manner. Surely we can all address the problems accordingly? Though, most of these aggressions are rooted in the correct cause. Don't get me wrong, the people flaming should not, but I would never, ever, say they do not have the right to do so. People have the right to do almost anything. It is just how society handles ones actions that prevents us, in our better judgment, and interests, from acting in such ways.

Now, leaving that behind, I do believe that in supply and demand, the producer will suffer if the consumer decides not to consume, no? It is in their right for Microsoft to deny us any thing, really, but is that completely in their best interest? If they take this approach with all the games they are marketing, it would really hurt them. They need the consumer, and to keep the consumer, they keep him happy. If the game is not is not up to a quality standard, then it will make them suffer. One game won't do it, but from experience with others I know, if they start on the track, they typically don't get off.

The people always have a right to complain. I know you are merely suggesting to do it in another matter, which is respectful, but it is within our rights to expect a good game. If they make one that we do not see as such, we have the right to refrain from purchasing that game (of course). Though, when the game is really not to standard, and they advertise saying that they really look forward to custom maps, they sure as hell better not disappoint people with lack of tools, and assets, because word goes around. Now, you may say I have no proof it was advertised to come with all of the multiplayer assets, though I distinctly remember hearing so in one of those videos. And since I have failed to find said video, I offer you this: The proof is in the fact that in the help file itself, there are references to non existent tags. That is purely unacceptable and should not be tolerated. It is completely fair for everyone to complain. Also, putting on the front cover "Includes Map Editor" is just low when you really fail to include one that can really do anything. It is as if they put that on there as a marketing ploy in order to trick the lesser knowing buyer into getting it. They don't know what the editing kit could be capable of, why complain? If that was not their true cause for placing that label on the front, then I would like to ask, what is?

[UXB]

1. No Insults.
2. No Demands.
3. Clear and Concise.
4. Your Viewpoint.
5. No Expectations.
6. Reply (to existing issues).

The term "common Sense" is a misnomer because it is not so common after all.

these are experienced people getting paid to make a decent (modest terminology) port of an existing game

What you fail to realize is that that they are also under the direction of the company, in this case Microsoft, to deliver what Microsoft deems an acceptable product: One that fits their overall marketing strategy for games for Windows Live. That may not be what you specifically think is an acceptable product. Only Microsoft can make the determination of the game's success or failure in the market they chose to peruse. You and I are not privy to that decision or plan. All we can do is register our dissatisfaction by keeping our wallets closed.

Editing Kit does not provide enough in various areas
The CE community is based on the idea that we can express ourselves through this hobby.

Quite frankly the Halo CE community, as zealous as they are, are not the primary market for this game. The HCE community is very small compared to the buying public. I can pretty much assure you that complains about the editing kit will fall on deaf ears. I bogged about it http://h2v.halomaps.org/?nid=411 in a rant on the Halo 2 Vista Maps website. There are valid business reasons to not allow as much freedom in the editing kit as with Halo CE.

While I agree that whining won't help the situation, it certainly is, in many cases, warranted when it comes to Halo 2 Vista.

Caveat Emptor my friend, which is Latin for “Buyer Beware”. Whining in public is never and option. Which is not to say that you now allowed to dislike or disagree with something in the product, however full scale whining is more an indication that you didn’t do your homework and research the product before you bought it. Marketing people generally disregard the opinions of those who whine. They do, however, respect non-insulting, clear and concise, logically reasoned opinions of and about the product. And that is the point Nick is making.

Nick of all people calling us jerks for insulting and disrespectful posts? I feel disrespected and insulted

In my opinion, this response is not warranted based on the subject and point of the thread. I am not going to try and play mediator between you and Nick because I haven’t the stomach to research the source of the animosity that has built up between the two of you. All I know is that in the few threads I have read here you two have been sniping at each other like an old unhappily married couple. Quite frankly it does not do justice to either of you.

The term "common Sense" is a misnomer because it is not so common after all.

I can still hate every last Microsoft product manager, right? Good.

Only after you have met them all There was this one particularly statuesque young lady with an enchanting smile I am sure you would not want to hate.

[Zeph]

Why do you insist on calling us jerks, Nick? Its very insulting.

Perhaps if you read his posts, you'd understand why. Oh wait, people dont do that anymore.....

[Dole]

What you fail to realize is that that they are also under the direction of the company, in this case Microsoft, to deliver what Microsoft deems an acceptable product: One that fits their overall marketing strategy for games for Windows Live.

If Microsoft though it was an acceptable product they wouldn't have delayed it's release twice in a row and then recalled it shortly after.

Caveat Emptor my friend, which is Latin for “Buyer Beware”.

Buyer Beware? This isn't a flea market, Dennis.

Who said the Halo 2 Vista developers are whining? If you think I am one, you are mistaken; I am just a logical individual who knows the hardships of software development and the ungratefulness of users, and I am also someone who browses these forums and am tired of reading the same temper tantrums daily.

When did I say H2V devs were whining, or that you were an H2V dev?
I said verbatum, "if YOU were an H2V developer, YOU would not be whining."

[bum has knife]

Very interesting topic. I wonder what the Hired Gun "community manager" has to say about it...

I guess first I should introduce myself. I am the Technical Artist on the Hired Gun team. If you look at the credits you'll see one artist, thats me. We are a pretty small team over here so ... I'm also now the "community manager". I'll do my best to address you guys more often but you should understand that you won't see a response to every thread and there are some questions that I simply cannot answer. I'm trying to monitor as many forums as I can but thats a daunting task. I don't mind PMs at all but if I get as many of those as there are threads then I won't be able to read all of those either.

Now back on topic, Nick has made some good points that I would like to address.

Here are the most important things in my opinion:
3. Clear and Concise.
6. Reply.

If I can't understand what it is that you're trying to tell me then its even harder for me to relay that information. Also, more frequent problems bubble up faster, but as Nick says, don't lie. That ain't cool.

As the guy who has to read and pass along information from the community I will weigh in on these two:
1. No Insults.
2. No Demands.

Ok, so I'm getting pretty good at filtering out the insults and skimming to the actual issue. Trust me, it wasn't easy to get to that point though. I can understand your anger though and you can insult me or my team all you want but I can assure you it doesn't amount to much. We all want the best game so I will not ignore a legitimate issue just because someone was laying into us at the same time. The issue will be passed on, not the anger.

You can make your suggestions and consider them demands but that leads us to another of his points:
5. No Expectations.

I can speak for everyone here on the Hired Gun team and assure you that we do care about our game and the community. We are evaluating every suggestion/issue that we see and we will use that feedback to make a better game.

Thanks,
Bum

[Snaver]

Nice to meet you, now lets get these issues sorted, lets huddle community!

P.S you should probably make this the primary forum you visit often, collectively it has the best members honest

[UXB]

If Microsoft though it was an acceptable product they wouldn't have delayed it's release twice in a row and then recalled it shortly after.

Misinterpreting facts does not your point make. You do not know what the reasons were for any delays. There may have been issue with production schedules, Artwork, printed material, duplication, market timing, shipping schedules, or programming tweaks decided to be added or changed at the last minute. Unless you are in the loop at MS you do not know. The reason for the "recall" was very public. It was an unintentional "Easter egg" that caused an issue with the Game code ratings which has legal ramifications in the US. Or didn’t you wonder why Australia had the game before the US did?

Buyer Beware? This isn't a flea market, Dennis.

Actually, the whole system is and if you think differently then you are in for a big surprise later in life. You need to educate yourself before you buy anything and that includes corporate made products or Tee shirts from a street vender.

[Dr Nick]

What I'm starting to think now, is that Steve Ballmer says it better than anyone else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zEQhhaJsU4

I understand that trying to keep gamers from hacking to get advantages has its restrictions.
The main reason the map editing software is so restricted, is because of this.

Seriously, it's like they just cut down the old programs, added a couple new features, and hoped it worked right...


So, if you want to blame someone, blame the asses of the world, not the HG, or Bungie, or Microsoft.
It's not their fault, they tried to give us what we wanted, but they couldn't just give out the tools to hack the games. Instead they gave us the best PoS they could and hoped we'd be okay with it.

The only thing I dislike about this idea, is that they've only stalled the hacking.

[SuperSunny]

Thank you, Bum!