Modacity shooters' thread

[Cagerrin]

Thumbhole stocks are the best stocks.

hate how that sks looks, though.

[Donut]

those were both birthday presents, so im not going to complain. the little crack in the stock isnt anything that would cause it to splinter. its like a small chip that got cracked off the top.

and icee, it would talk all god damn day to get adequate photos of all the shit we have around here... ill see what i can do

[ICEE]

its not like you have shit to do son

[rossmum]

Donut please buy original stocks for both and a bayonet for that SKS because while both are a dime a dozen unlike most milsurp, holy fuck are those stocks vomit-inducing :smith:

[Warsaw]

SKSes in the USA are starting to get rather expensive, not that I much are for them myself.

So, I shot some old-school Enfield 1853Ps this summer while working at a Boy Scout summer camp. I must say that, apart from a ricochet coming within a few inches of my head, black powder weapons are far more pleasant to shoot than firearms employing modern smokeless powders. It doesn't slam your shoulder, is just as accurate if you're using Minié balls, and the smoke cloud is just awesome. Also, I like having something to operate between shots. :)

E:
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8955/confederateme.jpg

I dare you Yankee devils to try and take down this flag...

[rossmum]

coming out of posting retirement to post this

zP8ZRdTII30

don't worry, next time i'll yell at dad to point the camera a bit downrange so you can see what i'm actually shooting at

[TeeKup]

Gorgeous rifle.

[rossmum]

oh um yeah and i spent all of the other day reassembling owen guns with their bolts

because everything in the museum except stuff obtained from british collectors is still functional

i'd post photos but :effort:, maybe at a later date when i get more of them

[PenGuin1362]

this was just announced a few days ago. I have to say I'm quite drawn to it, not to mention the mag capacity is 14+1. Expected MSRP is $600-$700. Definitely considering picking one of these up soon as it's released, which will hopefully be this summer :)

Kel-Tec KSG (http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=5659)

[Warsaw]

I think that has to be one of the coolest-looking shotguns since the M1897 and the Browning gas-powered.

[rossmum]

shame kel-tec build quality is an oxymoron, because they make some cool as fuck stuff

they're also possibly the only manufacturer in the history of ever to make a bullpup trigger that doesn't suck

[PenGuin1362]

still gunna buy one, they look so slick, not to mention the 14+1 capacity

[Warsaw]

I want to add a shotgun to my fledgling gun collection, and this one would make for excellent home defence, something my rifle would be horrible for. Also great fun at the range with slugs.

If it's within reason on the price, I'll buy one. If it costs close to or more than an 1897, I'm buying an 1897. $3000 be damned, no one will fuck with your house if they know your shotgun can also mount a bayonet.

[PenGuin1362]

I actually saw an 870 at the gun store yesterday with a bayonet on it, it made me laugh. also for home defense/personal defense/target shooting I'm getting the Beretta 92FS

[Warsaw]

Eh. Not a bad pistol, but I'd never ever buy one myself. It's similar to how I will never ever buy a Japanese car. I'll take a Glock over a Beretta, and a 1911 above all.

[PenGuin1362]

glocks are too heavy, action too slow and heavy too, trigger pull not smooth enough, will probably never buy a glock lol. 1911 is a true story :p however i think it's too bulky for concealed carry so getting 92 first

[Warsaw]

I respectfully disagree. 1911s are perfect for concealed carry because they have rounded corners, very little greeblies, and they come in compact models. Unless you want PPK-level of concealability, it doesn't get much better. :D

Also, Glock? Slow? Heavy? wat.

[PenGuin1362]

ever fired one? they're not very smooth compared to other guns I've fired. Also the trigger pull on the 92fs is fantastic. and your disagreement is noted, in fact agreed with :p but for the time being I prefer the 92. the 1911 I'll get down the line :) I also like the aluminum frame which rules out the glock since it's polymer, but if I were to go with polymer I've heard from numerous shooters that the M&P Smith and Wesson is one of the leading polymer pistols, at a very affordable price.

In terms of 1911's....I want this one O.o http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=206871796

[Warsaw]

Ah, styling reminiscent of the old Colt revolvers. I like it. I do prefer the A1-style grip over the original straight one, though. A simple 1911A1 or a quality modern reproduction of it would more than suffice for me.

I've never fired a Glock. I'm just surprised to hear that they are slow. As for heavy...well, the one I did mess with wasn't anything I'd gripe over, but I guess to each his own. Fired an XD-40 though. That is a fine gun, if I do say so myself.

[Cortexian]

H&K or bust when it comes to pistols. If you have an endless budget of course, because they ain't cheap.

Seriously, MK23 is probably the most amazing handgun you'll ever fire, ever. It's just works so perfectly well, makes its USP little brothers proud. They are double-stack pistols though, so you need pretty big hands to be comfortable with them (both USP's and the MK23). Haven't fired any of H&Ks new handguns like the HK45/P30 models, really want to.

[paladin]

Fired an XD-40 though. That is a fine gun, if I do say so myself.

Thats my next one.

I carry this most of the time
(http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764916_-1_757764_757752_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

And have a Colt Commander in my glovebox

[Warsaw]

I've always found Sigmas to be rather plain. I mean, so are Glocks, but Glocks have uniform look to them where Sigmas look like a USP slide fitted onto an FN .22 lower. Since you own it, I assume it feels well enough, though.

All this talk of pistols is getting me excited about my 21st birthday next Christmas.


H&K or bust when it comes to pistols. If you have an endless budget of course, because they ain't cheap.

Seriously, MK23 is probably the most amazing handgun you'll ever fire, ever. It's just works so perfectly well, makes its USP little brothers proud. They are double-stack pistols though, so you need pretty big hands to be comfortable with them (both USP's and the MK23). Haven't fired any of H&Ks new handguns like the HK45/P30 models, really want to.

I have tiny hands. P99 fits my grip the best out of all the pistols I've ever fondled. The USP feels fat, and the Mk. 23 is just unwieldy.

[PenGuin1362]

when it comes to H&K you end up paying more for the name. I've seen and handled most of H&K's line up, a lot of it is just clones of other guns at twice the price. They're fine pistols but I don't run black ops in my spare time. The mk23 I fired felt almost uncomfortable compared to pistols at a $500 cheaper price. They're certainly nice guns, but others out there do just as well, if not better, with same or bigger mag capacity for more than half the price. One thing I noticed with the two walthers I fired, they had terrible grouping. I was shooting a ruger prior, then my friend gave me his walther and it could barely hit the target.

[Warsaw]

Eh. I just like the grip on the P99. Never fired one.

As for .45ACP pistols with same mag capacity, lower price, and better performance than the Mk. 23, I have one recommendation: Detonics 1911 double stack. Very fine guns, too bad the company went under. Good luck finding one.

[Cortexian]

I love how it's apparently easier to get a MK23 here in Canada than in the USA right now due to some kind of Germany/H&K/USA back order or something. At least that's what one of the gun dealers I was talking to recently said.

[PenGuin1362]

they have 2 usp's and 3 mk23's at my gun store, no shortage here

[Warsaw]

I love how it's apparently easier to get a MK23 here in Canada than in the USA right now due to some kind of Germany/H&K/USA back order or something. At least that's what one of the gun dealers I was talking to recently said.

Where did you get your info from? They are all over the place. Actually, H&K guns are easy as hell to find. SL9/SL8, G36, USP, Mk. 23, MP5, you name it. Now, what IS hard to get is an AK. God damn I swear, I'm sick of these shitty American, Romanian, and Chinese knockoffs. I want an honest to god Saiga. Those are easy to convert with parts.

[Cortexian]

He said new orders were getting back ordered by H&K to stores in the USA for some reason. Might be over now, heard this a few months ago.

[TVTyrant]

H&K is a little too rich for my blood. I like Kimber (still too rich), who make amazing 1911s. The Colt DAO (new for 2010/11) is really appealing to me. As far as polymer frame goes, I dont like the grips on Glocks. That curve makes me feel like Im shooting a flintlock horse pistol. Rugers SR9 is a handgun that I find interesting as well.

[iizahsum]

I remember firing a USP Match, Probably one of the most accurate handguns I've ever fired.

[PenGuin1362]

Where did you get your info from? They are all over the place. Actually, H&K guns are easy as hell to find. SL9/SL8, G36, USP, Mk. 23, MP5, you name it. Now, what IS hard to get is an AK. God damn I swear, I'm sick of these shitty American, Romanian, and Chinese knockoffs. I want an honest to god Saiga. Those are easy to convert with parts.

I fucking know. Even online they're a bitch to find. They're all over the fucking world but I can't find a legit Russian AK-47

[Warsaw]

I'm blaming Clinton. And before anybody says anything, it's a fact that it is his fault. Look it up. He's a bastard for that one. It's the same reason we can't find any MP-412 Rex revolvers.

[Cortexian]

MP-412*

[rossmum]

Yo Kevin you should stop fanboying HK bro I mean they make functional weapons but holy shit you pay such a ridiculous premium for the name that it's just not worth it. Also fuck roller-delayed blowback in anything except machine guns, and the G3 people blow loads over is just a clone of the CETME except with HK's price premium. Fuck that for a joke.

If I ever move to the US and need a carry piece? BHP, 1911 or CZ-75. Non-negotiable. As far as their rifles go, I will probably never own one and nor do I want to. There are many, many far better things on the market for far less cost.

[Warsaw]

When you say rifles, are you talking about AR-15s? Shit man, they are dirt cheap over here. As much as I hate the gun, it shoots where you point it and when you want it to. Also, don't hate on the R700.

[rossmum]

I mean HK rifles.

Seriously dude, I own a No.4 and am in the infantry. I'm all about rifles, just ones that are worth the time of day (not HK ones). When HK makes a rifle that is both sensible (not roller-locked), practical (not retarded like the XM-8), and affordable (lol good joke ross), I might change my mind.

[PenGuin1362]

honestly I love the G3 body style, but I would totally get a CETME or a PTR-91. Preferably the PTR-91 since it's generally better quality. I would NEVER waste the money on a civilian HK G3. So over priced. In terms of rifles, I definitely love the design of AR-15's I don't know why, especially with the A4 upper receiver. And like warsaw said, they are so god damn accurate, only problem is they malfunction like a champ. If you have the money, SCAR's and ACR's are no doubt worth every penny. I've handled both (never fired mind you) they both feel very comfortable, light (especially the ACR), they're durable, very accurate, disassemble very easily, and just look awesome. Again, that's if you have the $2300 to drop on them :/ Also FAL's are baller as fuck

[Warsaw]

I mean HK rifles.

Seriously dude, I own a No.4 and am in the infantry. I'm all about rifles, just ones that are worth the time of day (not HK ones). When HK makes a rifle that is both sensible (not roller-locked), practical (not retarded like the XM-8), and affordable (lol good joke ross), I might change my mind.

HK416 and 417 meets the first two. Affordability is a joke with H&K's entire lineup, though.

[rossmum]

Just gonna drop this:

The FAL and derivatives are the only full-size battle rifles worth a damn. I mean look at this shit

http://c.ask.nate.com/imgs/qrsi.php/4714917/6294285/3/9/A/fal_l1a1_suit.jpg

The M14 is a glorified target rifle which shouldn't even exist (you Yanks have the dumbest protectionist attitude towards military weapons, you go out of your way to avoid adopting foreign weapons even if the ones you end up using are shit), the G3 is an overpriced knockoff of the CETME and is roller-locked and therefore fucking retarded, and the modern options are all overpriced beauty queens which bring very little in the way of actual practical features to the battlefield. That and you guys have a really fucking unhealthy obsession of trying to make any new rifle as much like the AR as possible.

[Warsaw]

I wouldn't call any H&K gun good looking except for the MP7 and the G3/G33/etc.

As for us Yanks, that's just the brass. Most of us appreciate a good gun when we see it, irregardless of who made it. The brass is, and always has been, retarded.

[TVTyrant]

The M14 may be a glorified target rifle, but the weapon its based on was one of the finest rifles to ever serve. And as far as the American military having a protectionist attitude, its because we believe in one thing in are firearms designs- accuracy. The American military tradition was founded on it, and if a weapon does not perform to the standard of accuracy we set, we won't adopt. Thats why you see AR-15s, M1As, and M700s winning shooting competitions so often.

I like the FAL, but I was never really sold on it. Maybe its because I've never really liked FN, since half of there stuff is just Browning's designs recycled and the other half are just German designs recycled. Not really much ingenuity in there products, and most of them were overly expensive in my mind.

[rossmum]

FN is not just Browning's designs recycled, Browning actively took his designs to FN since they were willing to produce them with such quality. Hell, the HP was completed by Dieudonne Saive after Browning died. To say something is a recycled Browning design is totally redundant anyway since nearly every modern firearm owes its existence, in some way, to Browning. FN obviously believed in the 'if it ain't broke' formula, turning the BAR into the Model D and then the MAG-58 (arguably the best GPMG in the world and leaps and bounds better than the M60).

Meanwhile in 'MERICUH,

.280 British, a promising intermediate calibre that had both range and controllability at the same time, was destroyed totally by America's insistence on a full-size rifle round. Thanks to the US wanting to fight the last war (as usual), the EM-2 was canned and the FAL was upsized to within an inch of its life. Europe was stuck with battle rifles until the late 70s because of this, and when the US finally realised that full-size rifles as standard issue became obsolete in World War fucking Two and developed 5.56, everyone then got stuck with that. Now, of course, America realises that is just as shitty and there's a lot of call for 6.8... which is nearly identical to .280 British in terms of ballistics. Fucking unbelievable.

Even after the FAL was upsized to pander to the whims of the US, the selection process was totally rigged against it. Requiring the ability to load from stripper clips? Just what the fuck use would that be on any post-1945 battlefield? Of course, rather than selecting the rugged, reliable, and sensibly designed FAL, they went with the M14. For all intents and purposes the M14 is a target rifle and is really just a select-fire M1 that feeds from a mag rather than an enbloc, so while the rest of the world was embracing the age of ergonomically designed, rock-solid, and versatile rifles (i.e. the FAL and, much as I hate on it, the G3), America was prancing about with the same weapon they'd been using in the last major war with only a few tweaks here and there.

This is the same country that refused to install British 17pdr. guns in their tanks because they were "foreign". While British armoured regiments were out wrecking shit with the Allied version of the 88, the US was still fiddlefucking around with which of their guns to put on the Sherman, and they didn't really have an adequate tank-killer until the 90mm guns found on some late-war TDs and the Pershing.

Christ, the American military procurement system is the most fucking retarded thing. They are singly responsible for essentially halting all progress in the field of military small arms for three fucking decades. Accuracy doesn't matter a damn in urban combat, jungle combat, or pretty much any fucking place that isn't a desert (so I guess for once their obstinate stupidity has paid off). Reliability, controllability, versatility and efficiency are the hallmarks of a true military weapon. That said, there's no reason they can't be accurate too, it's just that they'll still be rejected by the US because they aren't from 'MERICUH.

[PenGuin1362]

The M14 is a beautiful rifle. Have you ever fired one? They're incredibly reliable, and insanely accurate. The recoil is heavy but not as bad as other rifles I've fired. I was at the range one day and my friends grouping with his friends M14 was tighter than the grouping of any FAL I've ever seen. Accuracy is incredibly important in a battle rifle because they are rifles designed to be precise, used mostly on single shot. They're not assault rifles. Honestly I'd take an M14 over an FAL every day having seen both in action (love FAL's though) Keep in mind though we only use the M14 as a Designated Marksmen rifle, in which it does it's job perfectly. And We have begun to adopt the SCAR, as of right now only SOCOM will get it because they don't see the necessity to spend the money on resupplying an entire army...when we don't have the money. Not like that's stopped us before though >_<

The adoption of the 5.56 was the worst idea in the world. It was developed during Vietnam under the principle idea of wounding rather than killing. If you wound your assailant than he's comrades will have to go get him and drag him to safety. At that point you can then take down the two man coming to rescue him. However, this rarely proved to be effective and most of the time where enemies were taken down was behind lines where no one had to expose themselves. The 5.56 is not a round meant for fighting a war, it was designed to wound, not to kill. Stupid fucking idea.

While it's definitely important to have a functioning rifle, Accuracy, ESPECIALLY in urban combat where you're going to be aiming at nothing more than a head 80% of the time is incredibly important. That's why the US hasn't adopted a new rifle. While the M16 jams easily it's not nearly as bad as it used to be (and how the rest of the world still perceives it to be). Unfortunately it does jam at a higher rate than most AR's on the military market, but still their accuracy cannot match that of the m16 (it's a trade off really, tighter tolerances = great grouping but easier malfunctions. Personally I'm so glad to see the military begining to adopt the MK 17 SCAR. It's highly durable, it uses the 7.62, and it's accuracy is quite admirable.

And I've seen countless reports and documentaries comparing firearms (not just from America) The reason we don't adopt certain firearms is because they really just don't compare, nothing to do with being from America. As a matter of fact, a lot of our firearms aren't America. The military side arm is the Beretta M9, Italian, The standard sub-machine gun is the MP5, German, Most of our police forces use either Glock or Sig Sauer, Austrian and German respectively. And SOCOM has the MK23, also German. I'll admit there are certainly some horrendous decisions by Military brass in terms of fire arm adoptions (especially the 5.56) But I wouldn't make the argument we don't adopt anything that's not American cause quite frankly that's just not true.

[Warsaw]

Wait, Ross, did you just say accuracy doesn't mean a damn in urban combat? Seriously, shame on you.

As a side, I still hate the SCAR. It looks and feels like a rectangle slab of plastic and metal. I'll take a 416 or 417 any day, even with the H&K price premium. Speaking of which, the Marines have adopted a modified 416 under the guise of needing something to replace the M249 SAW. Loophole. Typical Marines.

[TVTyrant]

Sadly in my original post I was going to say something about how much I liked the .280. I should have kept it to avoid your rant lol.

The adoption of the 5.56 made sense in its original form. But FN fucked it up. The original version used a 55 grain bullet that had an extremely thin jacket at the cannelure. The bullet essentially acted as an effective round should, entering the body and completely shredding within tissue. The original M16, while jamming all the time so no one noticed, shredded Vietnamese forces, and had insanely deadly effects on enemy combatants. I asked a family friend one time about it, and he said the exit wounds on the backs of Viet Cong were almost always fist sized, and that bursts would toss people to the ground just as effectively as rounds from a 7.62. In the 1970s NATO adoption trials though, the FN SS109 was the version backed by Americas European peers. They wanted to use a firearm designed to fight third world countries as the standard arm against the Soviets, who were (just as the Americans were) aready beginning to equip body armor to their standard infantry units that could stop submachine gun rounds. The Euro folks were afraid that at distances the original M193 round would not penetrate (it wouldn't tbh) so they actually forced the Americans into the SS109, which is the round that has given the M4 and many other short barreled 5.56 weapons the reputation of not breaking up in tissue, this not imparting any energy, and because of the short barrels they have a hard time even achieving the velocity to fully use the steel penetrator thats inserted into the bullets. Thus, struggle.

Fake E: Totally agree on the procurement thing btw. Our system is totally fucked, and we need to overhaul massively. Hell, 50 years ago the thing needed a massive facelift.

[rossmum]

The M14 is a beautiful rifle. Have you ever fired one? They're incredibly reliable, and insanely accurate. The recoil is heavy but not as bad as other rifles I've fired. I was at the range one day and my friends grouping with his friends M14 was tighter than the grouping of any FAL I've ever seen. Accuracy is incredibly important in a battle rifle because they are rifles designed to be precise, used mostly on single shot. They're not assault rifles. Honestly I'd take an M14 over an FAL every day having seen both in action (love FAL's though) Keep in mind though we only use the M14 as a Designated Marksmen rifle, in which it does it's job perfectly. And We have begun to adopt the SCAR, as of right now only SOCOM will get it because they don't see the necessity to spend the money on resupplying an entire army...when we don't have the money. Not like that's stopped us before though >_<
By 'accuracy' I meant something like a FAL is more than enough. You don't need the precision of a DMR for every soldier. The M14's ergonomics might be nice at the range (hell I bet you they're great) but they are RUBBISH for a combat rifle. There's a reason every other country ditched traditional stocks by the mid-50s. It is complicated to strip compared to the FAL which breaks open easily in much the same fashion as an M16, and its layout in general is less than ideal. A fine rifle it may be but I would not be caught dead with one in the field unless I was a marksman, in which case it does become an excellent combat weapon.


The adoption of the 5.56 was the worst idea in the world. It was developed during Vietnam under the principle idea of wounding rather than killing. If you wound your assailant than he's comrades will have to go get him and drag him to safety. At that point you can then take down the two man coming to rescue him. However, this rarely proved to be effective and most of the time where enemies were taken down was behind lines where no one had to expose themselves. The 5.56 is not a round meant for fighting a war, it was designed to wound, not to kill. Stupid fucking idea.
Yes, and now we're all stuck with it thanks to NATO standardisations. I really wish a country that actually knew what the fuck it was doing (looking at the UK here) was the one who got to have the final say on what gets standardised, because the US is the big retarded baby of weapons selection.


While it's definitely important to have a functioning rifle, Accuracy, ESPECIALLY in urban combat where you're going to be aiming at nothing more than a head 80% of the time is incredibly important. That's why the US hasn't adopted a new rifle. While the M16 jams easily it's not nearly as bad as it used to be (and how the rest of the world still perceives it to be). Unfortunately it does jam at a higher rate than most AR's on the military market, but still their accuracy cannot match that of the m16 (it's a trade off really, tighter tolerances = great grouping but easier malfunctions. Personally I'm so glad to see the military begining to adopt the MK 17 SCAR. It's highly durable, it uses the 7.62, and it's accuracy is quite admirable.
Addressed above. Surgical accuracy is not a worthwhile tradeoff for sheer ruggedness and ease of use in combat, which is why the US remains the only country to have taken the M14 into combat. Everyone else was sensible and took either the FAL or G3, and it never seemed to cause them any problems.


And I've seen countless reports and documentaries comparing firearms (not just from America) The reason we don't adopt certain firearms is because they really just don't compare, nothing to do with being from America. As a matter of fact, a lot of our firearms aren't America. The military side arm is the Beretta M9, Italian, The standard sub-machine gun is the MP5, German, Most of our police forces use either Glock or Sig Sauer, Austrian and German respectively. And SOCOM has the MK23, also German. I'll admit there are certainly some horrendous decisions by Military brass in terms of fire arm adoptions (especially the 5.56) But I wouldn't make the argument we don't adopt anything that's not American cause quite frankly that's just not true.
The M9 is a horrible choice for a military sidearm. It's huge, it's heavy, it has an open-cut slide so it's even easier for dirt and shit to get into the action and gum it up, and despite its nice features like a good trigger and decent controls, those three big points should have killed it. Instead, it was adopted over far superior designs like the HP (or its modern cousin, the CZ-75), the P226, and the USP. The MP5 is a decent choice other than being roller-locked and expensive as fuck for a piece of stamped metal, but if you go HK there's not much else you can do and it's reliable enough. Your police have good sense. The Mk.23 is a brick, personally I can't justify carrying something that big.

The whole 'IT AIN'T MADE IN 'MERICH' thing isn't much of an issue anymore, but up until the 70s or so it was. Look back at what you guys used pre-1970 and you'll see what I mean. Now the choices are just straight-out political, that or whoever makes them is King Pogue of Pogue Mountain (and also retarded).

[TVTyrant]

I think the rubbish thing depends on where your fighting. Im almost certain that if we ever saw a big conflict in France/Western Germany the M14 would see alot of effective use. And what do you mean its not rugged? The M1 design is one of the most rugged, lasting deigns in the world. Those guns last forever man. I agree the design was outdated for a full service rifle by the 1960s, but there are good points in the design.

As far as using weapons MADE in America I agree with that sentiment. Now, being designed and being made are two very different things however. I would have no problem if a country designed a rifle that fulfilled all the aspects laid before them by the US military and was a significant enough improvement to warrant re-equiption of are armed forces. But having the design physically made in the US is something I think alot of people on our shores agree with. Maybe its just an American thing, but last time I checked the militaries of Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Russia, China, and Korea predominantly used rifles manufactured in their own countries and I personally don't see anything wrong with that.

[Warsaw]

The M14 is actually quite rugged. Ergonomic, perhaps not, but rugged it was.

Even though our procurement system is indeed rubbish, I do have to point out one thing: it costs the US a hell of a lot more to re-equip its armed forces compared to ANY European country (save Russia...which is EurAsian at any rate) due to sheer size alone. That makes any proposal require double and triple takes by those in charge.

Also, I don't honestly know why we needed a new pistol. We got along just fine with the 1911, if they really wanted more ammunition capacity they could have saved serious money and had it re-chambered in .40 or 9mm. Optionally, make it double-stack. All servicemen I know have said the issued M9s are pieces of shit with warped barrels, etc.

[Cortexian]

I can H&K whore all I want bro, I'd pay the premium price for them because I AM a huge self-admitted fanboy.

[rossmum]

Why though? Some of their newer designs are nice I guess but you could buy something functionally identical (or superior) for a lot less cost from basically any other manufacturer

[Cortexian]

Idk, it's a personal thing I guess. Just like how different people have different favorite colors, I really like H&K's shit. Not just the pistols either, I still think the G36 is a lovely fucking beast of a rifle and the UMP is sexy as fuck.

If H&K was a girl I'd stock her so hard.

[PenGuin1362]

H&K fan boy is a losing battle. You can still be out gunned by a far cheaper product.

As for the M14 it is certianly is not NEARLY as ergonomic as the FAL. Which is why we use the EBR kit instead of the wood, it offers much better ergonomics, better recoil control, and a pistol grip. The M14, like I mentioned is ONLY a marksman rifle, it no longer serves a battle rifle.

I want the 1911 back :( the issue with 9mm is it lacks the stopping power of the .45, or hell even the .40 however the 9mm is known to have a much better effective range than the aforementioned. I note the issue with the large open cut but the M9 is a very fine side arm. However I've never seen the CZ-75 so I can't really compare it to that but it does have wonderful ergonomics, a great trigger, chrome lined barrel and a sturdy frame (one thing I noticed the HK pistols series really lacks). Personally I enjoy the M9 (or 92FS for me technically), but I also haven't used it in combat, nor have I talked to anyone who really has, But from other accounts I've heard it serves its purpose well.

[hobojoe]

Speaking of 1911's. I'm gonna be getting one in a few months. So I went to a range to try out a few
Smith and Weston, Kimber, Taurus, and a few others, I really liked the Kimber out of all of them. It had just a solid feel
compared to the others. I was wondering if anyone knew of something that might be better? Or is a Kimber pretty much top notch?
(God knows they cost enough.)

Here's the model I was considering: http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/custom-ii/custom-tle-rl-ii

Any thoughts?

[rossmum]

Peng:

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/czechoslovakia/hg51/1287752807.jpg

It's basically a modernised HP. I hear nothing but praise for this pistol and having handled (not shot, yet) one it is a dream.

e:

Also, why do Americans hate on heel releases so much? Thumb releases are cool and all and let you do all kinds of SICK TACTICOOL RELOADS, but heel releases are pretty practical and encourage not dropping mags just for the sake of looking cool like a tosser.

[Warsaw]

@H&K fanboyism:
MG42/MG3 is the best German gun ever produced, as far as I'm concerned. It's so good it is still used today, with the only other longest-lived gun being the M2HB. Nothing H&K makes will ever top the MG. Not seeing why everyone ooooh's and aaaah's over them, but hey, freedom of speech.

As for heel release: it's theoretically slower. That right there is basically the only reason it isn't more popular. Seeing as pistols are generally used in quick-reaction scenarios, it makes logical sense. You can be already grabbing your next magazine while the spent one falls out, and slam it in there as soon as that happens. You can also keep your gun better pointed at the target the entire time. Oddly enough, I don't hit the thumb release with my thumb, I hit it with my middle or ring finger.

[Amit]

Why though? Some of their newer designs are nice I guess but you could buy something functionally identical (or superior) for a lot less cost from basically any other manufacturer

Because he must simply have the best of the best.

[Warsaw]

But that's just the thing: they are not the best. A 1911 is a better gun than anything that has come out of H&K, including the Mk. 23. Their rifles are good, but the Russians had that kind of reliability long before and for a lot cheaper; their newest guns have accuracy, too. H&K doesn't do machineguns very well, so, no competition there. The only thing H&K does best is PDWs. I will take an MP7 over a P90, MP9, or SR2 any day.

[PenGuin1362]

HK 416 civilian begins shipping this week. For, what's essentially an M4 clone it's going for $2,995. The SCAR and ACR sell for nearly $600 and $400 less, respectively. Which both out performed the 416 in field testing. Just some more reasons why HK is generally over priced.

[TeeKup]

Yes but if H&K live up to the specs of the gun as it's advertised it won't nearly jam/malfunction as much. Then again most of the complaints about the M4 were magazine issues, and even then it was only in extreme environments like the desert...if I recall correctly.

Even still though, it is quite expensive.

[Cortexian]

A 1911 is a better gun than anything that has come out of H&K, including the Mk. 23.
This made me LOL IRL, every 1911 I've ever fired has malfunctioned while firing it. Though they weren't mine so I can't speak to the condition their owners maintained them in, however I was firing the same brand loads in a MK23 once and never had a problem. Different caliber obviously, but the MK23 is pretty much the most reliable gun I've ever fired.

[Warsaw]

It's also the most unwieldy handgun short of the massive civilian guns like the Desert Eagle and Grizzly. No excuse for being so huge, especially when it's USP sibling in the same caliber can also mount a suppressor. I would bet my non-existent hat those 1911s were either old, not taken care of sufficiently, or both.

Even still, that's one H&K gun out of their armoury. Their others are easily bested by other companies' designs.

@TeeKup: the complaints are more with the bullet than the gun. Everybody seems to forget that. 5.56 out of an M4 or any carbine is shit because it loses its energy too quickly. If they were smart, they would have switched calibers to 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC at the same time they switched guns. Sell off the stocks of 5.56 NATO on the civilian market, there are tons of us who can use it.

[rossmum]

There is literally nothing good I can say about HK on the whole. Shit, I have a hard time picking out one of their guns which is actually worth the hype it gets, let alone the cost.

~FN supremacy~

[Warsaw]

FN is win because they have Browning under their belts. I'm sorry, but nothing H&K has done will ever top Browning with the only true H&K innovation being the G11 Caseless Assault Rifle.

[TVTyrant]

The only reason they got Browning was because the President of Remington arms died of a heart attack the day he went to sell the auto-5 and his first semi-auto pistol patents to them. I agree though that nobody can best John Browning. The guy was a genius. He measured his designs on white paper in inches. INCHES. Everything by all the other makers was in multimeter. He was the master of gun design, only Paul Mauser can even come close (well Mannlicher was close too).

[Warsaw]

Eh, Mauser made the first modern bolt-action, but I mean that wasn't anywhere near as impressive. All he did was essentially marry the brass cartridge to a breech-loader. Eventually he threw a magazine and a safety in there. I think the Lee action is far superior.

[TVTyrant]

Really? The one lug Lee is superior? I strongly disagree. The Enfield is one of my favorites (one of the first guns I fired too) but come on. There is a reason that the 98 became the design of choice for all bolt rifles. The multiple lug system is inherently more accurate, and is alot less likely to fail than the Lee Enfield system. It handles pressure to a much higher standard, and while its not nearly as easy to operate, it is much better as a hunting weapon.
That said, for military purposes I like the Lee as well. The fast easy action made it relevant well into th 20th century, and unless your figuring on fighting in the American mountains, the .303 Brit is all the cartridge you will ever need in a military situation. Plus the 10 round mag was ahead of its time, as was its ability to be detachable.

[Warsaw]

The reason it (the Mauser system) won out is because it came out first and was marketed better. The single lug is absolutely massive; I don't honestly think the pressure tolerance is an issue (mine is an Ishapore and shoots .308...almost equivalent to .30-06). Accuracy of the system only comes into play if you are already a damn fine shot, but the fact that the British made successful sniper rifles out of the weapon means it is a moot point. The Mauser system does have a much better safety, I will give it that. I wouldn't trust my Enfield's safety, ever.

[Cortexian]

No excuse for being so huge, especially when it's USP sibling in the same caliber can also mount a suppressor.
It's huge because it was designed to be a high-capacity offensive handgun, yes, offensive handgun you heard right. Since it's so huge it can carry two extra rounds per magazine, which isn't a huge difference but in a firefight you never know. That double-tap could save your life bro.

Also, quoted directly from Wiki:


The MK23 Mod 0 was built as an "offensive" handgun for U.S. special operations forces under USSOCOM, as per request made in 1989. Military versions of the firearm have the writing "MK23 USSOCOM" engraved on the slide.

The MK23 is considered a match grade pistol, and is capable of making a 2-inch (51 mm) group at 50 yards (46 m), roughly 4 MOA. Production began in 1991, and it was the basis for the HK USP, which began production in 1993. The MK23 has exceptional durability in harsh environments, being waterproof and corrosion-resistant. It uses a polygonal barrel design, which is reported to improve accuracy and durability. It also features an ambidextrous safety and magazine release on both sides of the frame. The magazine release is at the rear edge of the trigger guard, which is wide enough to allow the use of gloves. A decocking lever is on the left side, which will silently lower the cocked hammer. The MK23 is part of a larger weapon system that includes an attachable laser aiming module, a suppressor, and some other features such as a special high-pressure match cartridge (.45 +P ammunition).

So basically the MK23 was the stepping stone to the USP, as such it had some issues (like the size). But it also had and still has some awesome features, like the completely silent decocking lever. The last sentence really shows what it was designed to be, a handgun that was designed as a whole "weapon system", opposed to most just being designed as last resort type firearms. The MK23 was designed for people like Sam Fisher, people that we aren't supposed to know about and use insanely overpriced gadgets and weaponry.

[rossmum]

You don't need a monster of a pistol for a larger mag though.

As far as the Lee/Mauser debate goes:

I love my Lee-Enfields. I absolutely fucking adore them. That said, the Lee action is a relic of the blackpowder era and is inherently prone to earlier failures than the Mauser action. That one massive locking lug might look solid now, but given two world wars or someone who shoots hundreds of rounds through it a week, it will eventually wear down enough. It might not be visibly dangerous, but one day you're going to pull that trigger and the bolt is going to unlock itself and implant the cocking piece in your face. If the lug is what wears and not the corresponding lockup channel in the receiver, you can replace the bolt; if not, you're going to need a new rifle. It's a less retardedly dangerous and throwaway system than roller locking, but not by much.

The Mauser action, on the other hand, takes a hell of a long time to fail and does tend to produce more accuracy (at the expense of reliability; even inch-pattern SMLEs, versus 'Enfield inch' examples, are horrifically unreliable as soon as they're exposed to dirt) due to tighter tolerances and a much more solid lockup. While the Lee action's design does make it probably both the fastest and smoothest of bolt actions anywhere, the Mauser action can be operated just as rapidly by someone with a little strength and some experience. I do love the Lee action, though, as any idiot can crank out shots like there's no tomorrow on it while the Mauser takes some practice.

At the end of the day, the Lee is a better combat rifle, but the Mauser is what you want for any civilian application other than the obvious milsurp collecting/fun to shoot value. It will last forever.

[Warsaw]

Freelancer: Sam Fisher uses the FN Five-seveN. That is a tiny handgun. Sam Fisher would NOT use the Mk. 23. If it was the stepping stone to the USP, why is it even still around when the USP is more compact, can mount systems underneath, can be supressed, and has a double-stack .45ACP magazine? That said, you don't have to have a big gun for big ammunition capacity. Extended mags, bro. They work.

@Ross: I guess they are valid points. If you've been having to fire an Enfield that much, though, you ought to have spares on hand in the first place.

[TVTyrant]

I totally agree with that. Especially since the most accurate (and probably strongest and most expensive) bolt design is a Jarret, which has 9 locking lugs. NINE. Only in Ameica :D

[Cortexian]

Freelancer: Sam Fisher uses the FN Five-seveN. That is a tiny handgun. Sam Fisher would NOT use the Mk. 23. If it was the stepping stone to the USP, why is it even still around when the USP is more compact, can mount systems underneath, can be supressed, and has a double-stack .45ACP magazine? That said, you don't have to have a big gun for big ammunition capacity. Extended mags, bro. They work.
I never said Sam Fisher did, I said Sam Fisher types would use it. As in, shady people paid large sums of money under the table to do dirty dirty things for them. Basically ninjas. Or mercenaries. Also, extended mags work when you have the space for it but anything larger than a regular mag is generally shit if you're in any kind of CQC area or in vehicles or other tight spaces. Especially if you're using a thigh holster, since the mag will end up hitting whatever your back/ass is to.

In addition, the MK23 as a larger frame to increase durability. A MK23 will undoubtedly last longer in a stress test than most other semi-automatic handguns. Not to mention the fact that it was developed for prolonged use of the high(er) pressure match grade ammunition. And the barrel is fucking amazing.

[Warsaw]

SEALs use it. That's basically it. A 12-round magazine in a double-stack 1911 is the same size as a 12-round magazine in a Mk. 23. That said, SEAL operators also use 1911 variants.

I wouldn't exactly classify the Mk. 23 as a successful endeavour, since it has not seen widespread adoption by any armed force, not even the one it was made for.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah but I don't think the "offensive" handgun is a good idea anyways. Why not use a silenced compact machine pistol instead? The MAC 11 with a silencer would do a fine job as an offensive weapon in that scenario and its not even that huge. The MK23 is humongous. Its even bigger than a double stack 1911. I dont see what the point is when the 1911 could do the same job on a proven platform thats mor compact, or why you wouldn't upgrade to a select fire weapon.

However I respect your point about durability. That thing is a proven performer with +P ammo, and from what I've seen or heard of it, it is at the top of the accuracy world from a handgun perspective. I just have a hard time believing that Sam Fisher types would use it since it is honestly too big to be carried sneakily. A Navy Seal or a Army Ranger would probably love that thing though, its just too bad the 1911 got to them first.

[Warsaw]

The Mk. 23 was actually specifically made for the SEALs, which is why it is called the "Mark 23" in the first place. That's Navy nomenclature (SCAR is the Mark 17, if I recall).

[Cortexian]

Yea the SCAR variants are Mark 16 (5.56) and Mark 17 (7.62) in the eyes of the Navy. The thing about special forces, is that they can readily get and change the weapons they use on a mission to mission basis. You could probably say that the MK23 has seen use by many more special operations units than the SEALS. I remember talking to an ex-JTF2 logistics guy that basically said they brought in at least 10 factory new guns for every mission JTF2 was going on. He then went on to say that JTF2 usually ordered 10 new guns because they broke 5 or 6 every time they went out haha.

[Warsaw]

So much for durability. But the ability for special forces to get whatever they want/need is exactly what has prevented the Mk. 23 from being a major success story. Each operator has his preference of weapon.

[rossmum]

If you get to the point where you need a spare receiver, you may as well just get a new rifle.

[Warsaw]

In US Firearms Law, the receiver is the only part that actually counts as a firearm. :haw:


Potentially, that means one could build a makeshift gun consisting of a barrel and trigger, and it won't classify as a firearm.

[PenGuin1362]

I wish I could go to SHOT show :( but a report from someone who did shows this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaY2DhAHMRQ&feature=player_embedded

Hysterical? yes. Practical? not likely.

[ICEE]

The mossberg chainsaw: for when you have entirely given up on ironsights

[TeeKup]

I wish I could go to SHOT show :( but a report from someone who did shows this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaY2DhAHMRQ&feature=player_embedded

Hysterical? yes. Practical? not likely.

Fuck practicality, if you're in a Zombie apocalypse that looks like a stable CAWS as any.

[Spartan094]

The mossberg chainsaw: for when you have entirely given up on ironsights
What scrub uses ironsights on a shotgun when fighting zombies.

[ICEE]

The scrub that hits the target.


Or recognizes that zombies do not exist

[Spartan094]

Or recognizes that zombies do not exist
I also meant that sentence for TeeKup.

[Cortexian]

Completely useless accessory right there.

[Warsaw]

The scrub that hits the target.


Or recognizes that zombies do not exist

Party pooper. :(

[rossmum]

Fuck practicality, if you're in a Zombie apocalypse that looks like a stable CAWS as any.
Nope, looks like a gimmick to pander to the BUT ITS SO COOL DUDE LOL ITS JUST LIKE IN THIS CRAZY GAME I PLAYED ONCE!!! crowd. Total WOFTAM.

I don't care what kind of apocalypse it is, any shotgun I pack will have a full stock (folding at least) and normal pump or foregrip. I like actually being able to hit my target, and I realise that a chainsaw grip isn't really going to improve anything.


Completely useless accessory right there.
If Kevin says that, you know it must be true.

[Cortexian]

Hey, I don't use gun accessories unless they're actually useful or improve ergonomics enough that you can actually FEEL it.

Ross doesn't like my latest Facebook photo everyone:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1365.snc4/163744_486669604006_709249006_5961975_4414689_n.jp g

I was drunk when I put it all together, and I only took like 2 minutes playing with blending.

[rossmum]

Shoulder pads are a useless encumbrance http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

[PenGuin1362]

Real men take rounds to the shoulder like a champ and keep moving. Bigger men pull a bullet out of their own brain and keep going:caruso:

[ICEE]

Why do we even need shoulder pads for modern battles? Now, if you had offered me a shoulder pad during the era of the mosin nagant...

E: just realized y'all weren't talking about recoil absorbing shoulder pads.

[Warsaw]

Shoulder pads are a useless encumbrance http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Actually, most of the shit we wear is an encumbrance. The Russians are just as effective and efficient as we are (according to my military buddies) and you know what they wear? BDU pants, telnyashkas, and an assault vest to hold their ammunition. We pussyfoot around the house with robots, they just kick the door in and kill what needs killing.

[rossmum]

Why do we even need shoulder pads for modern battles? Now, if you had offered me a shoulder pad during the era of the mosin nagant...

E: just realized y'all weren't talking about recoil absorbing shoulder pads.
Behold the pussification of modern shooters. :sigh:

420 shoot ww2 milsurp without recoil pads erry day

[Warsaw]

I'd do that. Recoil pad feel awkward. The rifle was designed to fit without one, adding one just throws off the ergonomics, what little they do have.

[TVTyrant]

Why would you need a recoil pad for a Nagant? That shit barely even kicks. Seriously I've shot pellet guns that were scarier than that thing...

BTW I'm like 6'3" and more than 300 pounds...

[Warsaw]

I'm 5' 8.75" and 120 lbs. Nice to meet you. :)

[rossmum]

6'1" 130

[Cortexian]

Recoil absorbing shoulder pads are also never in the right place, especially the ones integrated into vests like the Crye CAGE chassis replica I'm wearing in that picture. It's much to close to center mass to be in the right shooting position, you can make it work if you shoot in a shitty stance though.

Anyhow, I'd much rather wear shoulder pads that protect me from small arms fire instead of nothing at all. Not to mention that they're maybe a pound each? Train with that shit on and don't be a pussy about PT and you'll be fine. Obviously the one I'm wearing in that photo is just for show, it's just cloth, doesn't stop anything except 6mm airsoft BB's heh.

And I'm 6' 4" - 195.

[rossmum]

It's not just the weight, it's the cumulative effect of it (as well as the lessening of mobility and the possibility of snagging and so on).

The most sensible thing is to only wear what's necessitated by the environment - nothing more than an LBV when you're not expecting contact, bare minimum armour when there's a chance of light contact or when you need to traverse seriously fucked terrain, then full-blown armour when mobility isn't an issue but getting hit is. Even in the latter circumstances, I see no real justification for wearing shoulder pads. They might stop a flank shot from heading down into your chest from above and to the side, or stop shrapnel doing the same, but that's about it. They won't protect you if your arms aren't by your sides or if you're fired at from level/below. That's not enough protection to warrant wearing them in my book.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah, but from what I've read that's been a sniper's favorite shot in Iraq for a few years now. Alot of guys are getting shot near the shoulder by snipers in Baghdad or its attempted, because a PSL with just about any ammo (nearly all comm block ammo is slightly armor piercing because of how much steel they use) is likely to pierce through that section of your body and enter vitals. Another favorite is the neck, but I don't think we will ever see soldiers wearing kevlar cowboy collars into combat :/

[Warsaw]

The biggest problem with those shoulder pads is that they are doing them wrong. That shit is no better than wearing football pads, and offers zero defence against a shoulder shot from ahead or behind. Shit man, I could design something more effective than that in my sleep, while preserving the mobility needed to wield a rifle.

[rossmum]

Yeah, but from what I've read that's been a sniper's favorite shot in Iraq for a few years now. Alot of guys are getting shot near the shoulder by snipers in Baghdad or its attempted, because a PSL with just about any ammo (nearly all comm block ammo is slightly armor piercing because of how much steel they use) is likely to pierce through that section of your body and enter vitals. Another favorite is the neck, but I don't think we will ever see soldiers wearing kevlar cowboy collars into combat :/
Have you seen what a 7.62x54R will do to body armour? I have, one of the guys on SA was hit while on patrol. Straight through the helmet, both sides, and took out a fair chunk of the guy's head too. It's a miracle he survived with only minimal handicaps from it.

It might be effective against Achmed's battered old AK that his dad used during Iran-Iraq, but it sure as shit won't do much to protect you against a sniper.

[Patssj6]

You are all skinny as fuck :D I weigh more than you and I was not accepted in the German Army (thank god) because of underweight.

[PenGuin1362]

The m91/30 has little kick and minimal muzzle flash. However, if anyone has every fired the M44 Mosin Nagant (short barrel) they can attest to it's recoil being far greater than that of the M91/30, and the massive fire ball that comes out. It's nothing you can't handle but you notice it greatly compared to the full barreled one. I went through 200 rounds in a day once and my shoulder bruised and literally bloody. Also that round will pierce nearly god damn anything i've shot it through numerous thicknesses of steal plating, caste iron, and an old engine block. Love that gun.

[rossmum]

Hahahah oh god yes the M44. That thing is like a flamethrower and rifle all in one.

By the same logic, I bet you could use an Obrez as a bolt-action flashbang.

[ICEE]

Why would you need a recoil pad for a Nagant? That shit barely even kicks. Seriously I've shot pellet guns that were scarier than that thing...

BTW I'm like 6'3" and more than 300 pounds...

For us average sized men, the nagant's a real back breaker. Hell, you can feel the shockwave when you're not even the one firing it.

[TVTyrant]

Baw, go eat more protein and lift more weights. To Pats, you weigh more than 305? I might have to take skinny as a compliment haha.

Oh yeah, Im totally aware that the 7.62x54R will shred most armor. My point is that if you at least have something that can help to slow it down, it could save the lives of soldiers. As far as the helmet thing goes, the PAGST helmet will be penetrated by a 7.62x25 round. I can't find the video (which makes me feel foolish) but at one point I saw a video of a guy using a PT-33 (of CZ manufacture) to shoot straight through both sides of the PAGST and a watermelon. It was quite convincing hinestly.

[Patrickssj6]

Baw, go eat more protein and lift more weights. To Pats, you weigh more than 305? I might have to take skinny as a compliment haha.

Haha :P Sorry but for the German Army you are to protein heavy...you have to be between 150 and 190 pounds depending on your size. They don't take underweight / overweight people because they don't want to pay for injuries you might get while doing their program (mostly back problems).

[Warsaw]

Baw, go eat more protein and lift more weights. To Pats, you weigh more than 305? I might have to take skinny as a compliment haha.

Oh yeah, Im totally aware that the 7.62x54R will shred most armor. My point is that if you at least have something that can help to slow it down, it could save the lives of soldiers. As far as the helmet thing goes, the PAGST helmet will be penetrated by a 7.62x25 round. I can't find the video (which makes me feel foolish) but at one point I saw a video of a guy using a PT-33 (of CZ manufacture) to shoot straight through both sides of the PAGST and a watermelon. It was quite convincing hinestly.

Interceptor combat vest can stop multiple hits from the 7.62x54R. Even the special sniper's ammunition.

[rossmum]

Really? Shit, that stuff's stronger than I thought.

Either way, I can't see those little shoulder pads providing the same level of protection at all.

[Cortexian]

No shoulder pad will provide the same amount of protection as a giant thick ballistic rated metal plate... Maybe a dragon skin shoulder pad or something.

[Warsaw]

Ceramic plate. :eng101:


Really? Shit, that stuff's stronger than I thought.

Either way, I can't see those little shoulder pads providing the same level of protection at all.

It catches a lot of flak from the media and public for no good reason. Just because Dragon Skin is grenade-proof doesn't mean Interceptor is bad at what it does. It doesn't help Dragon Skin's case when the glue holding it together melts. And while I know those trials were rigged, wearing full load-out in the hot Middle Eastern sun does get extremely hot.

[PenGuin1362]

Dragon skin trials WERE sabotaged. But they DO melt in extreme heat, aka flash overs (when your humvee is engulfed in flames from IED/RPG/etc.). A friend of mine, his old buddy was in Iraq wearing a dragon skin vest when his humvee was attacked, he suffered numerous 3rd degree burns nearly over his entire body because the armor melted

[Warsaw]

And that is why it was rejected.

Seriously, what's wrong with stitching the damn thing together with leather chord, hm?

[Cortexian]

Or they could just put a base layer under it that doesn't suck. Problem solved. Armor melts onto the base layer instead of the person.

[Warsaw]

And make the base layer out of what, exactly? The idea is not to bulk up too much, otherwise you completely defeat the advantage of Dragon Skin.

[rossmum]

vaguely related tangent (http://www.platatac.com/plat-a-tac-sas-windproof-smock/w1/i1109810/)

godDAMN does this sound nice. bit rich for my blood though when there's no guarantee they'd let us wear them, since they're non-issue and us chocs don't get much leeway in kit

i might ask the boss, he would probably know if it's kosher or not. if it is then i might just have to splash out, the issue jackets do fuckall

[Cortexian]

Those Canadian buttons are fucking fantastic in the cold. And when you need a lolhueg button to get at because you're under fire and STRESS STRESS STRESS.

@Warsaw, make the BDU out of a material that's fire/heat resistant. At least enough to stop the dragon skin from melting through, problem solved. Issue them together, or just issue the dragon skin BDU base as the standard BDU and then issue the dragon skin shit in theater or wherever.

[PenGuin1362]

For the obvious reason I wish I hadn't, but I inherited this today from my Grandfather. He used to hunt religiously with it, or so I was told. It's a Winchester Model 88 .308 Win. I believe the one I have was made in the late 50's. From what he used to tell me about I hear it's quite the rifle and quite accurate.

http://www.icollector.com/images/1159/14768/14768_0170_1_lg.jpg

[rossmum]

Sorry about your gramps man, but hey he can chill with both of mine now at least http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-unsmith.gif

[PenGuin1362]

I feel as though there may be a hostile take over of heaven if both our grandparents are there. Knowing our gun toting ways (and his). Once I get home from this semester I'm hoping to take it out. He's used this rifle since the day he got it, even the times I went out shooting with him. Thinkin it should shoot pretty damn good

[Warsaw]

Those Canadian buttons are fucking fantastic in the cold. And when you need a lolhueg button to get at because you're under fire and STRESS STRESS STRESS.

@Warsaw, make the BDU out of a material that's fire/heat resistant. At least enough to stop the dragon skin from melting through, problem solved. Issue them together, or just issue the dragon skin BDU base as the standard BDU and then issue the dragon skin shit in theater or wherever.


Those materials that are heat resistant enough to stop the soldier from getting burns are also very bulky and would give the boys a heatstroke in the desert sun. Problem persists.

[rossmum]

I feel as though there may be a hostile take over of heaven if both our grandparents are there. Knowing our gun toting ways (and his). Once I get home from this semester I'm hoping to take it out. He's used this rifle since the day he got it, even the times I went out shooting with him. Thinkin it should shoot pretty damn good
Working guns are the best guns. There's just something about them that no safe queen could ever hope to top.

[TVTyrant]

For the obvious reason I wish I hadn't, but I inherited this today from my Grandfather. He used to hunt religiously with it, or so I was told. It's a Winchester Model 88 .308 Win. I believe the one I have was made in the late 50's. From what he used to tell me about I hear it's quite the rifle and quite accurate.

http://www.icollector.com/images/1159/14768/14768_0170_1_lg.jpg

My Uncle Bob has one of those. They are really nice deer rifles, and are really popular (when they can be found) here in the northwest. I've shot his a couple time, 1.5"x5 rounds at 100 yards :)

[PenGuin1362]

Accuracy International new rifle looks damn sexy. The AX338. Would probably buy if I had stupid sums of money, no MSRP yet but as mentioned in the article, it's AI, its going to be a fuck load

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ax338_1-tfb.jpg

[rossmum]

Looks like an AWSM festooned with rails.

...I'm okay with this.

[ICEE]

stick an M203 on that pronto.

[TVTyrant]

Ahem
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YGLQQZTHoU0/SXvvualszuI/AAAAAAAAHHE/YwuCvV4tlWQ/s400/tacticoolAR15.jpg
Fake E: Like 3/4s of those are just ACOGs LMAO.

[Warsaw]

Looks like an AWSM festooned with rails.

...I'm okay with this.

Since I'm partial to AI's thumb-hole stocks, slap one on it and I'm sold.

[paladin]

Traded in my sigma for Springfield XD40 sub. New carry

http://image.odinseye.org/images/mmspicture.jpg

The thing kicks like a mofo, but is accurate at 25yd. 10 rounds in 5"

Not a real fan of the safety system though

[Cortexian]

*waits for the obligatory "why is the barrel bent like that?" comment*

[InnerGoat]

It's a mini howitzer

[hobojoe]

*waits for the obligatory "why is the barrel bent like that?" comment*
OMG Why is the barrel bent like that!? Inaccurate gun right there.:realsmug:

[TVTyrant]

What don't you like about the safety?

Also OMG WHY IS THE BARREL BENT!!!11!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!!!!!!!!one1!!!!!!!111

[paladin]

Theres no physical switch, its just a palm and trigger safety, where you have to have the one on the grip and trigger both active to fire teh gun.

http://cdn.learnaboutguns.com/springfieldxd.jpg

you can see them both in that pic. heres a review of the gun (http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/05/19/springfield-xd-pistol-review/)

[TVTyrant]

Gotcha. Seems like its an idea based on the 1911s safety, but they tried removing one of the safeties. Seems kind of unsafe tbh, and not the kinf of thin someone knew to handguns should be purchasing. I don't have much experience with pistols, and I was looking at those earlier. Should I get something else instead or should I not really worry about?

[Cortexian]

I wouldn't get something with only a grip safety, increases the chance that you'll have a negligent discharge when drawing the firearm.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah that was my concern. I was looking into the XD because its like the only square poly that looks good. The grip on the Glock looks disgusting, and while thats a bad thing to judge a gun off of, I still can't stand the look on the 17.
Maybe I'll just get a 1911 Import. Can't really go wrong with a 1911.

[hobojoe]

You looking for a everyday carry 1911?

[TVTyrant]

I don't want to carry, I just want a handgun for the home/to have and to hold.

[Warsaw]

Shit man, an M1911 A1 Government would be my baby. I'd carry that...next year.

[hobojoe]

Speaking of 1911's. I'm gonna be getting one in a few months. So I went to a range to try out a few
Smith and Weston, Kimber, Taurus, and a few others, I really liked the Kimber out of all of them. It had just a solid feel
compared to the others. I was wondering if anyone knew of something that might be better? Or is a Kimber pretty much top notch?
(God knows they cost enough.)

Here's the model I was considering: http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/cu...stom-tle-rl-ii (http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/custom-ii/custom-tle-rl-ii)
( And is one of few that seem to be legal in California.)

Any thoughts?

[Cortexian]

http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/covert-ii/ultra-covert-ii

:)

[TVTyrant]

Kimber=GODS OF GUNMAKING

[hobojoe]

Well I'm actually not looking for 3-4 in. I'm trying to get a full size 1911.
And I like the TLE RL II Becuase it also has a full steel frame and slide.

I'd like to have the covert as a conceal carry, but that's later down the road.

And I love Kimber so much, on my range we always used the Model 82 government, loved those guns

[Warsaw]

I dislike how Kimber doesn't have any models using the A1 grip. I hate the straight back.

[PenGuin1362]

can't go wrong with kimber or S&W

[TVTyrant]

IDK about Smith. I've never heard AMAZING things about them. They make a very consistent product, but who doesn't these days? I think the fact that they're a classic company nets a lot of their sales.

[Warsaw]

They make a very consistent product, but who doesn't these days?

Norinco.

Actually, I lied. They make a consistently mediocre product.

[TVTyrant]

Still counts as consistency! And I'd buy a Norinco if they were still imported. I refuse to pay 1100 bucks for a M1A!

[paladin]

My sigma was decent for $300.

[Warsaw]

Still counts as consistency! And I'd buy a Norinco if they were still imported. I refuse to pay 1100 bucks for a M1A!

There's a damn good reason why they aren't allowed import any more.

[TVTyrant]

I heard that a bunch of them have improperly treated recievers on the M14 copies. Also because China sells guns to terrorists lol. Seriously there was a big article on it a year or so ago...

[PenGuin1362]

I'd buy nothing but Springfield for an M1A, also I've heard nothing but good things from S&W owners, even of their 1911 series, they say it's a fantastic target pistol as well.

[TVTyrant]

My problem with Smith isn't that they put out BAD products, as much as they put out BLAND products. Their pistols do nothing to excite me. They make awesome revolvers, but I don't have a need for a .500 S&W mag. Their products are all consistently very good, but IDK there is just something missing when I examine them that makes them unattractive to my money.

[PenGuin1362]

very good point. One reason why I don't particularly care for the M&P series is it just looks boring, while I hear they are some of the best in the polymer line of pistols. However, I find some of their 1911's to be quite sexy.

[TVTyrant]

There compacts are cool. The other look more like the old 4506 model then they do like 1911s. They also add a bunch of stuff like rails that makes the classic 1911 look like something weird. Its like adding rails to a old bolt action. Its just not right.

[PenGuin1362]

......>_> cause who would do that...eherm.... just kidding, but seriously considered buying a mosin nagant to make all tacticool for no other reason than pure entertainment and hilarity.

[Warsaw]

Man, Nagants are fun as-is because they are so cheap.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah but if you made one tacticool you could post it on gun forums and watch people shake their heads for the lulz.

[PenGuin1362]

I have two and they're fan-fucking-tastic but because they're so cheap, it's also super cheap to make em tacticool, like you said, epic lulz would be had....while still piercing iron at 100 yards

[TVTyrant]

My only reserve on the nagant is that the ones I've seen in stores have been real pigs. I haven't examined any bores, but most are really beat up looking, and the cosmoline is just ew. I'd probably order one from a good site before I bought one at Big 5.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/mosin-nagant/p/mosin-nagant-91-30-round-receiver-laminated-stock,-7-62x54r/cPath/209_261/products_id/1337
E: LOL ITS ADDRESS IS 1337

[PenGuin1362]

gunbroker.com yo. Although the ones I've seen around here have always been pretty good condition. The first one I bought was beautiful

[TVTyrant]

I guess we don't get ones like that in Portland. Most that I have seen are really crappy. I'd rather get the M44 carbine though tbh. Would be a really nice survivor rifle. You know, to leave behind the truck seat or whatever?

[Cortexian]

So I was at the range today, was ogling an HK MR308 (MR762 for your US baddies, it's the exact same gun just 762 is to cool of a name for the Canadian market):
http://www.armeriagamba.it/Portals/0/hk%20mr308.gif

Price here in Canada? $5,000~

So we went and shot some pistols instead, dad wanted to try out the .44 revolver and I chose to try out a Beretta 92FS and then later a Glock 22, both in .40... Got a vid of me yielding like a little fuck to the Glock, not sure why, the Beretta have much more of a bite to it and the Glock was nice and smooth in comparison (nothing compared to the USP I usually fire though HEH).

I'll upload it and see if you guys can figure out why I was yielding so much, the R.O. gave me some tips and I shaped up by the last couple mags but it was weird the first few times. First time firing a Glock in .40 but I've fored them in 9mm before so that shouldn't of been a problem. :v:

Note: Yielding = arms moving a lot due to the recoil, not controlling the gun enough to lock my arms right. I'm not gonna lie, I only had a few hours of sleep last night and was kinda tired. But even after putting 3~ rounds through the Beretta I shouldn't have been range fatigued.

[Warsaw]

Actually, we just call it the HK417. That's what it is, sans automatic mode of fire.

[Cortexian]

Well HK calls the civi version the HK MR762, so you may all call it that, but they're different guns.

Here's the promised video:
-TRHQrgEOa4&hd=1

[TVTyrant]

Too some friends of mine who are international students shooting today. They are Arab, so we got a couple weird looks from random hicks when we were buying bricks of .22 ammo :shake:
They seemed to really enjoy my pair of Ruger 10/22s. I have Butler Creek 25 round mags (the steel lips versions of course), and they really thought it was fun to spam stumps in the woods with rounds. Of course, they have no idea how the mechanics work on these things, so when they had a couple of double feeds, I had to take them away and show them how to clear jams :maddowns:
One of the guys was surprisingly deadly with my .30-06 too. We set up a foot tall 6 inch wide hunk of wood about 300 yards out in the clear cut, and he blew the living hell out of it, first time he'd ever shot that rifle too. TBH, I was kinda jealous lol.

[Warsaw]

Well HK calls the civi version the HK MR762, so you may all call it that, but they're different guns.



I know that. Civilian models always have a different name. But that is what it is.

[Cortexian]

You should all read this:
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Makes me laugh because I know a few people like that at the local range haha. I admit, I wear "tactical" or "combat" pants almost every day... I do it because they're comfortable as hell, provide lots of pocket space, and look fairly professional when ironed correctly. I don't wear them because I need the ability to quickly and effectively strap a Blackhawk SERPA to the integrated Blackhawk S.T.R.I.K.E. webbing on my pants (https://www.sealsactiongear.com/catalog/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=1251)... I actually use those to hold the top part of a flashlight I carry around so it doesn't fall out of the large back pockets...

[TVTyrant]

That has been posted on a lot of gun forums as a troll joke. It is hilarious everytime I see it.

[Cortexian]

Yeah I just found it on Canadian Gun Nutz in a thread someone made about the FN 2000. They wanted it for use inside a vehicle for private security contracting here in Canada.

You know, because people that aren't in Law Enforcement or Military are allowed to carry here in Canada. Let alone use said firearm on anyone for "security" purposes. :lmao:

[TVTyrant]

On ifish (the local favorite site), someone posted this. It was really funny to see some of the isolation nuts that live on the East Side of Oregon actually tryin to help this guy with finding ceramic plates, helmets, bulk ammo and gas masks and all kinds of other shit.

[PenGuin1362]

Not to resurrect the HK debate again but $5,000 O_O what a waste

[Cortexian]

Worth every cent. :v:

[PenGuin1362]

$3,000 maybe, but definitely not $5,000. I would never spend $5,000 on an assault rifle, not until they offer features worth 5 grand.

also comical gun is comical

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sdc10816-tfb1.jpg

e: also, WAT! the Steyr halted production of the civilian AUG back in October until the economy stabilized. In the mean time Sabre Defense was making the civilian AUG under license of Steyr. Recently Sabre went under for illegal arms trafficking. I didn't know Sabre was the licensed manufacturer until now >_>. There are other companies that make clones but from what I hear they just don't compare. Fortunately Steyr will resume production eventually, but there's no foreseeable date.

[Cortexian]

You guys should recommend some "black" guns in 7.62x51 (.308 Win). 18.5" barrel must be an option and semi-auto only. I want something that I can get that's Non-Restricted here in Alberta so I can start doing some tactical shooting courses while also having a gun that I can use for hunting. Most of the shots we take hunting are under 300 yards, and I've got my new .30-06 for longer shots if need be.

Robinson Armament XCR-M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSW4aTyNLE)
HK MR308 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8v7WgKJWQ8)
Springfield Armory M1A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTf_jvY-z4s)
FN SCAR-H (If FN ever starts selling them direct to Canada and the RCMP deem them Non-Restricted) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW6Bzud2W1o)

etc...

[TVTyrant]

What kind of .30-06 ya got? I've got an old Remington 721 made in 1954, which I topped with a 3.5-10x cheapy. I've taken a Mulie, and a buddy of mine has killed an elk with it so far, both around 200 yards.

[Cortexian]

Thompson/Center Venture (http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/venture.php) w/Bushnell Elite 4200
(http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/elite4200/423944M/)

[TVTyrant]

I've always wanted to try the Thompson Center bolts out. I've heard they're really smooth, and more than accurate enough. Whats the magnification on your Bushnell?

[Cortexian]

Yeah the bolt is awesome and extremely easy to remove as well, we actually got the gun for a STEAL because we got in on a small firearms dealers first group order of them. Didn't realize the Bushnell site had that model drop-down box haha, updated my last post with the specific model link. It's the 3-9x40 (http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/elite4200/423944M/).

[PenGuin1362]

The M1A is a bit heavy and cumbersome, but as we had the argument before it is god damn accurate and it'll drop just about everything. Plus, not sure if they're legal there, but if you get the EBR kit for it it makes it a bit easier to handle, nice pistol grip and adjustable stock.

[Cortexian]

I'm pretty sure it's legal, but if I got something like that I'd go with the Troy MCS (http://troyind.com/troy-weapon-upgrades/m14-mcs-upgrades). It's a lot better imo.

[TVTyrant]

Gah the Troy system is way too expensive. Jesus I am NOT going to pay the same price I paid for the gun as for the "super stock." Its like buying a Romanian AK and adding a shit load of rails and an M4 stock. I already paid 1100 for the M1A I am not going to pay ANOTHER 1100 for the stock, and then 1100 optics and stuff. BLECH!

[Amit]

Gah the Troy system is way too expensive. Jesus I am NOT going to pay the same price I paid for the gun as for the "super stock." Its like buying a Romanian AK and adding a shit load of rails and an M4 stock. I already paid 1100 for the M1A I am not going to pay ANOTHER 1100 for the stock, and then 1100 optics and stuff. BLECH!

Well, unlike you and I, Freelancer seems to have bottomless pockets.

[Cortexian]

:)

Like I said "if I got something like that". I'm much more interested in the XCR-M and HK MR308, and at $3,000 and $5,000 each it would probably be cheaper to buy the M1A for $1,100, MCS for $1,100, and then optics for whatever amount depending on what I get.

[TVTyrant]

I'm just gonna buy an SKS thanks. Reliable, cheap, decently accurate to 300 yards. All you would ever really need. I'll probably refinish the stock to a redish tone just because I hate whatever kind of wood finish is on them (it is disgusting). I might get one of those 20 round mag kits and other bullcrap like that too. Thats my summer project :)

[Cortexian]

7.62x39 is lame though, and all the cool 7.62x51 guns I like are expensive as balls!

[Warsaw]

You don't like Lee-Enfields? Heresy.

[Cortexian]

There are some exceptions when the firearm itself is outstanding, but 7.62x39 isn't powerful enough (in my opinion) to fulfill the ability to take it out hunting. I'd trust it to take down deer, but not Elk or Moose.

With all this said, I'm probably going to end up getting a Benelli M4 for my next gun. That way we'll have two shotguns (one for me and my dad) when we go bird hunting specifically. We can also put a tighter choke into the Super Black Eagle and restrict it to just a bird gun, then leave the M4 open for slugs in case we stumble across a naughty bear while hunting other animals. I can also get into some tactical shooting courses with the M4.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah, but I already have my .30-06 which will kill anyhing. I use the Hornady super performance rounds, which makes it equal to a .300 H&H.

[rossmum]

I'm just gonna buy an SKS thanks. Reliable, cheap, decently accurate to 300 yards. All you would ever really need. I'll probably refinish the stock to a redish tone just because I hate whatever kind of wood finish is on them (it is disgusting). I might get one of those 20 round mag kits and other bullcrap like that too. Thats my summer project :)
fuck you for making me post, but i'll help a bro out

most russian examples of the sks, as well as most mosins and svts, have stocks finished with a deep red or ruby shellac. if the colour of the wood bothers you that much see if you can get a russian rifle, they're typically of better quality anyway

[Warsaw]

There are some exceptions when the firearm itself is outstanding, but 7.62x39 isn't powerful enough (in my opinion) to fulfill the ability to take it out hunting. I'd trust it to take down deer, but not Elk or Moose.

With all this said, I'm probably going to end up getting a Benelli M4 for my next gun. That way we'll have two shotguns (one for me and my dad) when we go bird hunting specifically. We can also put a tighter choke into the Super Black Eagle and restrict it to just a bird gun, then leave the M4 open for slugs in case we stumble across a naughty bear while hunting other animals. I can also get into some tactical shooting courses with the M4.

No no no, my point was that you can get a 7.62x51 gun cheap if you include Ishapore Enfields in your browsing. I completely agree with your assessment of the 7.62x39mm for hunting.

[Cortexian]

True, but I'm looking into someting more modern and "tactical" so I can get into that kind of hobby shooting.

[rossmum]

get into 3 gun kev

[Cortexian]

I was thinking of it, or IDPA.

[TVTyrant]

get into 3 gun kev

I've been thinking about it. 3 gun is a really cool concept, and I want to compete in shooting. Or are you referring to the other Kev?


fuck you for making me post, but i'll help a bro out

most russian examples of the sks, as well as most mosins and svts, have stocks finished with a deep red or ruby shellac. if the colour of the wood bothers you that much see if you can get a russian rifle, they're typically of better quality anyway

Russian sks are hard to find in the US. We have a big tariff on Russian arms for whatever reason. Romanian and Yugo firearms are pretty cheap though. Almost bought a Yugo SKS for 299 today. It had a pretty decent stock, and nice shiny metal. Already unpacked and everything too. I might go back in 3 weeks and write a check. I really want one.

[Warsaw]

Thank the Cold War and Clinton for that tariff. I would love to get some civilian AKs, Russian-made. Roumanian, Yugo, and Chinese stuff all looks like ass (and not the good kind).

[PenGuin1362]

ARGGHH! I would kill for russian made firearms. Curio & Relic fireamrs (SVT, Mosin Nagants) are still sold but god damn it I want a russian sks or a russian AK, not these cheap ass Romanian, Yugo, or china bullshit. Fuck you Clinton. Also the M14 stock is god damn sexy. Definitely expensive, but I would probably throw that on my M1 when I get it. The M4 would be nice, never fired one but the few I've handled seem pretty nice

[Warsaw]

M14s are dead sexy, but I'd rather drop my money on its Soviet equivalents (SVT-40 and/or SVD). I imagine M14s kick about the same as an M1 since they operate essentially the same. Only .30-06 gun I've fired is a Colombian Mauser from 1920, and it kicked similar to my Ishapore. M1s and M14s are probably softer due to weight and the gas system.

[PenGuin1362]

My M1 kicks a bit, but the M14 I fired wasn't bad, neither of them were bad really. I would love an SVT and I'll probably get that before the M14 since they're only going to go up in price over the years so better to get it now. Unfortunately I need to buy a new safe soon before I can get any more guns :( Well I'm still buying my Beretta but after that there's no room left in my safe for more rifles :(

[Warsaw]

SVT-40: $900. How much to M14s run?

[Cortexian]

Depends if you get a Norinco or a Springfield Armory... Norinco's will run you about $500 and Springfield's around $1,600 because I guess people making things in America actually want to get paid a decent wage...

[Warsaw]

No. It's more of a collector's thing in this case. Springfield has been shut down for years now, and they were the original manufacturer. It's the same reason why a Colt-branded M1911 will cost you more. The premium is for owning a piece of history. A real Trench Gun costs around $3200. A Norinco? $500.

[Cortexian]

Springfield Armory is NOT the original "Springfield" that created the original M14. The Springfield Armory guns are in production and called the "M1A" at this point.

[TVTyrant]

The Springfield Armory is now preserved by the US government. Springfield Armory is a company that uses the same name and many of its initial workers were Springfield employees. Its a good marketing tactic.

[PenGuin1362]

Never ever buy a Norico. Springfield all the way, and it'll around $1,100 - $1,600 depending on the model

[TVTyrant]

Not many Norinco M1As in the US anyways. I think we already had this conversation a few pages back though...

[Warsaw]

Springfield Armory is NOT the original "Springfield" that created the original M14. The Springfield Armory guns are in production and called the "M1A" at this point.

I said Springfield, not Springfield Armory. It was deliberate. :p

[Cortexian]

Yeah but you were responding to me talking about Springfield Armory... :confused:

[Warsaw]

I guess I was, eh...didn't really cross my mind. But the rest of the point still stands. Having "Springfield" marked on your M14 makes it more valuable regardless of which Springfield it is.

[PenGuin1362]

I have it marked on my 1943 M1 Garand :) ...just sayin :p

[TVTyrant]

I want an M1. That would just be an awesome rifle to own.

[PenGuin1362]

It's just so much fun. Can't wait to get back home to it :)

[TVTyrant]

A little while ago we were discussing what different rounds do to a kevlar protection system. Well I found the link I had been looking for, and it has some surprising results
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
Of the pistols only the 7.62x25 (American lead core bullets too...) penetrates the PAGST, although the .357 would give you one hell of a concussion.

[PenGuin1362]

Should check the dragon skin test video, it stopped practically every round. Too bad it melts.

[TVTyrant]

Ive seen it. Wouldn't stop a .50 cal :P

[PenGuin1362]

nah but it stops most assault rifle rounds and pistol rounds as well as future weapon's makeshift IED. So it's a hell of an approvement over Kevlar lol. I was talkin to a friend of mine who's good friends with a guy who was in Iraq a few years back. He bought the dragon skin prior to them being banned and suffered third degree burns all over his torso when an IED engulfed his Humvee in flames. Apparently everyone was fine and he would have been too but the extreme heat surrounding the humvee melted the armor to his skin.

[Warsaw]

Ha ha! By definition, IEDs are makeshift. Makeshift improvised explosive device? :p

[PenGuin1362]

Touche! got me there haha

Also, curious as to what was going on in the army prior to the adoption of the 5.56 and the m16? read this

http://www.cfspress.com/sharpshooters/pdfs/Operational-Requrements-For-An-Infantry-Hand-Weapon.pdf

[TVTyrant]

It's just so much fun. Can't wait to get back home to it :)

Where did you get yours from? Im thinking of joining my college's rifle team just to get one from the CMP lol.

[PenGuin1362]

I would strongly advise :) especially because the CMP charges like $600 to $900 for their service grade rifles. And service grade is rated good to very good. I've seen a lot of their service grade rifles and depending on how lucky you are they can be pretty fucking good. Others aren't too bad. To get one of equal quality outside of the CMP you're looking at like $900-$1200. Plus rifle teams can be fun.

The rifle I bought I got from a gun store in town, they just got 4 in, but it was the only WWII manufactured one. It had a miss-colored stock because the original owner tried to re-stain the stock and only finished the main stock, not the heat guard. So I got it for $750. However it had all matching serial numbers, the barrel was factory replaced in 1955 so the bore is fantastic. Everything else was manufactured around 1943 and everything is from Springfield :) Over all it was in great condition, it was just cheaper because the stock was miss-colored and the stock cartouches were barely visible (for most collectors that's a huge thing).

I actually recently joined the Garand Collectors Association (only $25 a year :p), since they are in affiliation with the CMP, so now I can purchase stuff from the CMP :D
Ammunition is another big thing you want from the CMP. Older Garands need surplus ammo (roughly made from the 50's-70's) because newer 30-06 can damage your gas cylinder and the CMP offers 200rd cans of 50's/60's surplus 30-06, non corrosive for $96, which is a great deal.

[TVTyrant]

Do you have to be CMP for the ammo? I may have to make a move than, because my bolt rifle needs to be stocked. I was going to grab the $500 model if I joined. It is a good value, and you can always do work on them. I just want a fun gun. I'm also considering a Saiga 5.56 or a K98 for that same reason. A fun inexpensive rifle to augment my battery.

[PenGuin1362]

Yes you need to be CMP for the ammo. And the $500 models are fine, usually pretty good condition with your expected wear. Plus if something has more wear on it than you want, replacement parts are cheap and easy to come by. K98's are sexy too. But I think every American gun collector should own a Garand, The en bloc clips, as odd as they are, are fun and it's just an awesome rifle overall. But that's just my opinion, biased opinion since the Garand is my favorite rifle >_>

[TVTyrant]

Yeah, that was my thought. The en bloc thing doesn't seem too weird to me, but that might change when I buy one. My situation with school isn't looking great right now, so I may have to find another way to get to those CMP products :( Bummer about that ammo.

[PenGuin1362]

just do what I did. Join the Garand Collectors Association, $25 a year. And get your concealed carry permit and boom, you're in. That's really all you need. Personally I love the en bloc. They're just fun. Not practical by today's standards, but fun.

[Warsaw]

They aren't that far removed from today's standards. We only need those 30 rounds because it takes more to bust through obstacles with the smaller bullet. Reloading is only notably faster with practise. And then it's not like we use full auto much anyways...hell, most of our rifles are limited to burst-fire.

[PenGuin1362]

Yeah but I couldn't imagine having to reload every 8 rounds in the middle of a firefight during today's conflicts. Also in addition to the Beretta I'm also thinking about buying the M1895 Nagant revolver. Since they're only around $140, I figured it'd be a fun ass little pistol to have

[Warsaw]

Hell, I'd just fore-go the Beretta and get the revolver anyways.

[TVTyrant]

140? They are like 99 around here. Really cheap. Look out though, that Nagant revolver ammo is weird and you usually have to order it online.

[PenGuin1362]

Well the prices I was looking at were all online. Although I did find some for like $90 but you can't hand pick them. I'd want one from WWII era. But with all Russian weapons, the ammo is balls cheap, even ordering in bulk online.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah. Because its communist crap. Although I am going East Europe milsurp soon. That crap just seems too appealing...

[PenGuin1362]

it's just cheap ass shit that will definitely provide a great time for as long as you take care of it.

E: I just died a little :( who wants to help me rob a bank. This is an authentic Russian SVD with a scope that matches the serial number on the rifle. Made in 1994 by Izhmash armory. Has winter camo but it's still a legit matching SVD from Russia, not fuckin Romanian or Bulgaria.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218677556

[TeeKup]

So I turn 21 the 23rd.....I've been looking at this for a possible present:
http://www.digital-ink.net/photos/1911A1.jpg
Springfield Armory M1911 Loaded.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Better recommendations?

[Warsaw]

Kimber is the best of the best for 1911s, but I will make the same comment I always do when somebody posts their dream 1911: I hate the hi-cap grips (and Kimbers only have hi-cap grips). I like the GI grips, they just fit so much better in the hand. If I were you, I'd look at the Springfield Mil-Spec; you can get it in a silver finish.

Another variation I like, and it does have hi-cap grips unfortunately, is the Guncrafter Industries .50GI Model No. 1 (http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/model1_50gi.shtml). It's a custom M1911 that shoots a .50 round that is an up-sized .45. You can get the ammunition in +P loadings. A gun that has manageable recoil and shoots a .50 caliber bullet at 1200 feet per second? Sign me up please.

[PenGuin1362]

Yeah but if you're going to be doing mostly target shooting with it, .50 just seems unnecessary. You can't go wrong with the Springfield but I have also heard great things about kimber

[TVTyrant]

Kimber makes THE BEST 1911s. Its indisputable.

[Warsaw]

Yeah but if you're going to be doing mostly target shooting with it, .50 just seems unnecessary. You can't go wrong with the Springfield but I have also heard great things about kimber

.50 is less affected by windage than a .45 since it has more mass. The recoil is supposedly the same as the equivalent powder loading in .45. But yeah, it is generally unnecessary. As a self-defence round, though, I wouldn't mind having it.

Also, did you guys know that Detonics is back in business?

[Cortexian]

If I liked 1911's (I don't, at all) I'd definitely get a Kimber. Not only does everyone and their dog recommend them but they make some of the better looking 1911's I've seen.

[Dwood]

That grip doesn't even look like it'll fit in anyone's hand, Teekup.

[Warsaw]

That's a combination of two things:

1.) The angle, and

2.) You not realising just how big 1911s actually are.

That grip is full size.

[TeeKup]

I'll probably go Kimber then. I've also held some M1911's , they fit just fine. It's like Warsaw said, it's the picture.

The Kimber Rimfire 1911 is chambered for a .22LR, considerably cheaper but it just seems...wrong to have a 1911 in that caliber. :S

If I go Kimber, I have my eyes on a basic Stainless II:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/custom-ii/stainless-ii

[Warsaw]

Anybody who gets a 1911 something smaller than .38 is wrong in the head. :gonk:

[Cortexian]

Stick a Crimson Trace laser grip (http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Products/1911/LG301/tabid/255/Default.aspx) on it, just like that in black, but with a laser heh.

[Warsaw]

Wrap around, kills the aesthetic.

[Cortexian]

They have some that are bolt-on as well iirc, I just couldn't find them.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah there are bolt on laser grips. I've seen them a bunch of times. I dont really like them though. I dont ever plan to carry, and if an intruder comes into my house I depend on my dogs and tacticool 870 to handle whatever situation.

[hobojoe]

I turn 21 in May :( Getting the Kimber TLE RL II: http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/custom-ii/custom-tle-rl-ii

Have had my eyes on this one for a long time now

[TVTyrant]

Not my favorite, but still awesome. Kimber makes some really great guns. Their Bolt rifles are fucking awesome too. Personally I would go with one of their more classic style handguns.