Modacity shooters' thread

[PenGuin1362]

Well, Rock River has law and military contracts in the past so I'm sure it could handle short bursts. However, the recommended ROF on any AR-15/M16/M4 is only 12 to 15 rounds per minutes. Well that's the rate at which you can fire indefinitely without having to worry about anything over heating. Also got the new fore end today :D

http://i.imgur.com/hG31f.jpg

<3 magpul

[TVTyrant]

Wow that looks great. Do you have the rail attachments for it yet?

[PenGuin1362]

not yet, soon as decide what i want to put on it i'm going to order them both. thinking the angled fore grip by....wait for it.....magpul. or perhaps just a vert grip. not sure yet

[Cortexian]

AFG is a love/hate thing but I find that it's much more comfortable and provides a superior grip. I'm loving that so far, I think a C79A2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C79_optical_sight) scope is required to give you a truly badass look.

Good luck finding one anywhere except here though:
https://shopquestar.com/shopping65/shopexd.asp?id=852&bc=no

[PenGuin1362]

I do like the look of them, but again they are just stupid expensive. For the time being I'm probably going to get an EoTech or an Aimpoint in the next couple of months. Which are also wicked expensive, but still not $1300 >.>

[Amit]

I thought Elcan sights weren't that good.

[Cortexian]

The C79A2's are better than the C79's but they're still not the greatest. The new Specter DR scopes from Elcan are godlike.


<3 magpul
You need a B.A.D. Lever (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG980/100).

[TVTyrant]

Buying a 30-30 in two weeks...

[Cortexian]

Lever action?

[TVTyrant]

Lever action?
Is there any other kind?

I can't decide between Mossberg's copy of the Win 94, a Marlin 336, or searching for a used gun though.

[PenGuin1362]

a piece of advice to everyone, dont buy an AR-15 >_< cause you're just going to want to buy a bunch of shit for it that you don't need, but totally want. bought the magpul MOE grip since it's made for the MOE hand guard, and looking at getting one of these mags, cause I hear they're awesome and because they have a metal feed instead of polymer will last much longer

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1195

[Cortexian]

I'd rather stick with the ultra-durable P-MAG myself...

[TVTyrant]

P-Mags and mil specs.

[rossmum]

a piece of advice to everyone, dont buy an AR-15 >_< cause you're just going to want to buy a bunch of shit for it that you don't need, but totally want. bought the magpul MOE grip since it's made for the MOE hand guard, and looking at getting one of these mags, cause I hear they're awesome and because they have a metal feed instead of polymer will last much longer

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1195
depends what you do with your rifle and mags, if it's a range/safe queen there's really no need. if you run more... um, "dynamic" i guess competitions you might run into issues eventually. straight up combat? fuck polymer-feeding mags forever. pretty much every f88 mag i've ever used has been cracked to shit and back and most of them don't feed properly.

[TVTyrant]

depends what you do with your rifle and mags, if it's a range/safe queen there's really no need. if you run more... um, "dynamic" i guess competitions you might run into issues eventually. straight up combat? fuck polymer-feeding mags forever. pretty much every f88 mag i've ever used has been cracked to shit and back and most of them don't feed properly.
May have more to do with the way the mags were handled than the product itself.

[Cortexian]

straight up combat? fuck polymer-feeding mags forever. pretty much every f88 mag i've ever used has been cracked to shit and back and most of them don't feed properly.


May have more to do with the way the mags were handled than the product itself.

You mean driving over a P_MAG with a Humvee and/or 18-wheeler and having it come out unscathed? Get better polymer mags like P-MAG's and all your problems go away.

[rossmum]

Combat doesn't involve driving over mags with a vehicle, it involves years and years of constant, violent battering against obstacles and reloading because the military is too fucking cheap to buy some new fucking mags every once in a while. Most of the mags we use are as old as I am and when it gets to that point, yeah, you want steel. They'll be beaten to hell, they'll be scratched and gouged down to the white, but at least they'll still have some semblance of feed lips and it is much easier to un-stick a gummed up steel mag than polymer.

I think PMAGs are pretty neat, but that's something you buy yourself, not something the military buys. Reason is the one above - they will never, ever get around to replacing the fuckers.

(Also, Steyrs can't take STANAGs, so we're stuck with the shitty proprietary waffle mags which are cracked and warped to hell and back)

[Cortexian]

USSOCOM issues PMAGs last time I checked, so does CANSOFCOM to certain units.

[DarkHalo003]

Going to a Shooting Range nearby soon. The place has guns from sidearms (Baretta pistols, Glocks) to Assault Rifles (AK-47 even). What should I shoot? I've never shot a pistol, but I've shot a rifle and a shotgun. What would be a good gun to start with and a good gun to end with?

[PenGuin1362]

They actually recently banned the PMAG to certain units but only because it doesn't free drop from the HK416 (which is actually planned to replace the M249, as it out performs the M249 on fully automatic fire). But other than that I've heard great things about the pmag from people in the line of duty. Especially because they're easier to clean they said >.> Also the L5 AWM from Lancer is supposed to be pretty good because it actually has a metal feed instead of a polymer one, but the rest of the assembly resembles that of the pmag. This all falls down to personal preference. I think even in combat I'd want a mix of pmag and some really good steel ones, cause my steel mag doesn't feed as well as the pmags i have.

[Cortexian]

Going to a Shooting Range nearby soon. The place has guns from sidearms (Baretta pistols, Glocks) to Assault Rifles (AK-47 even). What should I shoot? I've never shot a pistol, but I've shot a rifle and a shotgun. What would be a good gun to start with and a good gun to end with?
If you've never shot a pistol before you should shoot a 9mm and then work up to 40 S&W.

[TVTyrant]

10mm ftw.

Also magazines in general begin to fail from over usage. I have fired thousands of rounds through my 10/22 using plastic feed lips. All the plastic mags I have used now fail constantly due to rubbed out (lol) feed lips. They are like $15 a pop so not too bad. Just like a PMAG. Ross is right though that the problem is the way that militaries issue weapons.

[rossmum]

If you've never shot a pistol before you should shoot a 9mm and then work up to 40 S&W.
.40 s&w is a worthless gimmick round designed to bait the retards who unironically believe that any calibre below .40 is worthless. sadly the shooting community by and large are incredibly retarded and so set in their beliefs as to be bordering autistic, so it was a successful worthless gimmick

.45acp is a fun round and most things chambered in .40 s&w are also chambered in that, which is good because .45 acp is great fun to shoot

[Cortexian]

Obviously, but moving from 9mm to .40 and then to .45 is better than just going straight to .45 acp since you can develop better recoil management.

[rossmum]

actually i disagree entirely with that, the 1911 firing .45 acp is very mild, even compared to some 9mms i've fired. by contrast the glock 22 i fired in .40 s&w was extremely snappy. i'm sure there are some guns chambered in .40 which aren't as snappy but really, you cannot go wrong with .45 out of a 1911. it just feels so right.

also you'd have to have severe osteoporosis by a 90-year-old's standards for .45 acp or .40 s&w to be a problem anyway

[PenGuin1362]

9mm's don't kill people, .45 acp's kill people. Duh, everyone knows that lead hurled at 1,200 fps+ is not going to kill someone UNLESS ITS BIGGER...... >_<

anyway you should all be jealous cause it's a gorgeous day so I'm going to take my arsenal of weapons out for a lovely day at the range. Also feel like dicking around with some specialty shotgun rounds, as much money as they are, they're still fun as shit :p

[Cortexian]

Dragon's Breath gogogogogo

[TVTyrant]

40 fires a heavier round. Thats the only reason it sees so much service in police units. a 180 or 200 grain round delivers a bigger load than a 115. I agree that 45 is the best service caliber, but the 40 isn't a POS. In my mind its more useful than a 9mm when you're using hardball ammo.

[The_Cereal_Killer]

Don't currently own any guns, but looking into buying a .357 Magnum quite soon. How original, amirite.

[Cortexian]

Honestly, why.

There are a billion other guns that are better in every way for anything practical. The .357 is expensive, heavy, gigantic, and generally just silly. You'll get more practical use out of semi-auto handgun and you'll have way more fun.

Or you could just get yourself a nice "black/green/red rifle" for range days, even more fun IMO.

[The_Cereal_Killer]

I really like the look. Revolvers in general have always attracted me as elegant. I'll probably end up with a good collection of the fuckers before all's said and done.

[TVTyrant]

Honestly, why.

There are a billion other guns that are better in every way for anything practical. The .357 is expensive, heavy, gigantic, and generally just silly. You'll get more practical use out of semi-auto handgun and you'll have way more fun.

Or you could just get yourself a nice "black/green/red rifle" for range days, even more fun IMO.
Name one? The 357 is a very controllable piece that is extremely useful for hunting in close range. You can have 38 SPL ammo for the same price as 45, and 357 isn't that bad.

[paladin]

My 357 black hawk is my favorite/ easiest gun to shoot.

[Cortexian]

Who the hell hunts with a handgun? Handguns exist so you can fight your way back to something bigger in a situation where shit hits the fan. They're also useful for people that need an easy to carry firearm for long periods like law enforcement and security.

[The_Cereal_Killer]

I don't hunt, I'm mainly buying a handgun with the anticipation of shooting people. I'm not particularly comfortable with the people who dwell nearby, shall we say...

[Cortexian]

In that case, why the hell aren't you getting a Benelli M4?

[TVTyrant]

Who the hell hunts with a handgun? Handguns exist so you can fight your way back to something bigger in a situation where shit hits the fan. They're also useful for people that need an easy to carry firearm for long periods like law enforcement and security.
Me and my friends usually keep a couple revolvers around when we are hunting. If you camp far enough away from your hunting area it provides a bit of fun, plus you can use it to shoot a deer/black bear that happens to walk right into your camp site.

[The_Cereal_Killer]

I'm applying for a "conceal and carry" permit. Can't very well conceal a shotgun.

[Cortexian]

Me and my friends usually keep a couple revolvers around when we are hunting. If you camp far enough away from your hunting area it provides a bit of fun, plus you can use it to shoot a deer/black bear that happens to walk right into your camp site.
Talk about completely unnecessary. Although there is almost no way to carry a handgun as a civilian here in Canada, we can apply for wilderness carry permits if our jobs require us to work alone in fairly isolated areas of the forest. Hunting with a handgun just improves the chances that you'll miss the animal or targeted area and just wound it.


I'm applying for a "conceal and carry" permit. Can't very well conceal a shotgun.
That's a different story, but I hope you're ready and willing to take a bunch of appropriate concealed carry courses. An untrained and inexperienced person carrying a handgun just becomes a burden to society instead of an asset.

[PenGuin1362]

Personally I wouldn't use a revolver as a concealed carry. They're fun as hell but for concealed carry I'd go with something semi auto and compact. But that's just me. Also no classes required in states like NH and VT :)

[paladin]

I dont think you'd conceal a revolver unless is was snub or short barrel, even then..

You dont need pay $250 to take a class on what you should already know. They are a joke and waste of time.

[PenGuin1362]

Could get away with a snub. I met a guy who carried around an original Colt SAA as his carry pistol. He was also like 100... >_> Some states do require the class though in order to get your license. Which sucks especially since it's ridiculously expensive. All I had to do was write down 3 references and show up with $10 and I got it

[Cortexian]

Classes may not be required, but if you don't take one then you're just a burden to society once you take that weapon out of its holster or get identified as someone who is carrying. Once you draw the firearm you better either use it or know how to retain it, because if the baddie gets it away from you, who knows now they might go on a murdering rampage.

Seriously, take a practical course on safe concealed carry that covers practical situations as well as fundamentals. Watching Magpul Dynamics videos doesn't count, those should be used as refreshers for people that have already taken similar courses.

I'd say 80-90% of people that legitimately carry in the USA really shouldn't because they're either negligent, uninformed, or otherwise unfit to do so. It's sad that there isn't more of a rigorous regime to make sure people applying for a carry license are actually fit to do so.


You dont need pay $250 to take a class on what you should already know. They are a joke and waste of time.
All the firearms training you need comes from Call of Duty right Paladin? You're a joke and a waste of time. Take a good course and I guarantee you'll become more proficient and more knowledgeable than you currently are. You'll also learn some things that will blow your mind.

[PenGuin1362]

I dunno, my friend had to take one to get his permit in Connecticut he said all they taught him were basic firearm safety rules, like keep your gun pointed in the air, finger off trigger unless on target, blah blah. Ya know, the shit your grandpa/dad teaches you the first time you shoot. And his was $200. Although, I guess for those people who really ARE in competent when it comes to firearms and only bought a gun because they played a lot of call of duty, yeah the course is probably a good idea. But those of us who have grown up around guns I've heard they don't do much, and you can't assume that cereal hasn't had proper instruction before, but you can always ask.

[TVTyrant]

I dunno, my friend had to take one to get his permit in Connecticut he said all they taught him were basic firearm safety rules, like keep your gun pointed in the air, finger off trigger unless on target, blah blah. Ya know, the shit your grandpa/dad teaches you the first time you shoot. And his was $200. Although, I guess for those people who really ARE in competent when it comes to firearms and only bought a gun because they played a lot of call of duty, yeah the course is probably a good idea. But those of us who have grown up around guns I've heard they don't do much, and you can't assume that cereal hasn't had proper instruction before, but you can always ask.
I took the courses so I could hunt as a kid. They aren't that bad.

Freelancer: Yes because your 9mm is soooooo useful in life.

[Cortexian]

I'm not talking about hunter education courses guys, I'm talking about concealed carry courses.

ZTr8xvkUWp4

Take a course like that, something that's geared towards actually using your firearm properly and not just the basics. A little extreme? Sure it's geared more towards military and law enforcement personnel, but if you take it as an average joe you'll gain a lot of experience and know-how.

TVTyrant: What 9mm? If I were to get a pistol it would be .45 ACP and only used at the range. Exactly the reason I'm not even considering getting one, here in Canada it's really only useful to have a handgun if you do competitions.

We can't shoot anyone, even if they're on our property with a gun so home-defense is out... We can't carry, concealed or otherwise... The only guns worth having up here are guns that you can also hunt with, shotguns and long-guns. When it comes to practicality and cost-savings you might as well get a gun that you can do everything with to a degree.

Now that I'm working I'll probably get a Benelli M4 soonish. Probably not until next year though.

[TVTyrant]

Well that just plain sucks. At least it makes sense if your only looking for a hand piece for competition. Might have been a good point to make initially :P

[hobojoe]

Little bit off talk but still on topic.

I finally turned 21 back in May, I ordered a : http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/custom-ii/custom-tle-rl-ii

I placed the order back in March of this year, and it arrived Late May, around the 25th. The only reason i got my weapon so early was because someone who ordered earlier than me canceled out at the last minute.
The pistol that I ordered through the store has not even shipped yet.

So I wait the 10 day period bla bla bla, I get the pistol to the range, lube it up, and put about 100rds through it the first day.
I had 13 failure to feed malfunctions. It seemed that the slide release lever was engaging only a little bit half way through a magazine. kind of an unusual malfunction.

Tried fixing the problem by A. Trying to change up hand positions, maybe i was rubbing on something. B tried different magazines and ammo. Kimber standard 7rd, Wilson Combat 8rd. Federal 45 auto 230g, Winchester 45 auto 230g. I even tried different shooters to see if that would help.

So I called Kimber support and explained, they sent me a " modified slide release lever ". I had the new part installed and still had the same malfunctions.

So I call again, and explain that it didn't work, they now want the weapon shipped to them. boxed it up , and drove an hour to the nearest UPS distribution center ( Can't ship it out through the store.) It arrives on June 29th at Kimber. July 19th I get a call telling me that they " fixed it " and will be here on the 20th.

Today my weapon is back. It arrived dirty and black, after test firing it they didn't even bother to clean it before shipping it out.

I will see how it shoots tomorrow, and give you guys an update. I had always loved kimber, but there is some serious problems with there quality assurance. I have never been through this kind of a hassle to get a firearm working before. And I had always heard that Kimber was the best of the best. But his is ridiculous

So I think this will be my first and last Kimber that I purchase

[TVTyrant]

Did the gun come with a warranty? Get your money back if you can. Seems like their fault and not yours. Its weird that a Kimber product struggled like that, but you deserve your money back/a new gun.

[PenGuin1362]

Kimbers are usually fantastic. But yeah I would just try and get your money back and either get a new one or another pistol

[Spartan094]

Speaking of 1911's.
http://spartan094.codebrainshideout.net/Weapons/American/Pistol/AMT/IMG_0042.JPG
I got passed down a Gov't Control AMT .45 1911. It's not shitty since AMT was known for not so good quality later on, my grandpa and his friend used it enough to know or else it would have been repaired a lot. The recoil to me is so little when firing this, I got surprised. I didn't have any problems out of the 50 rounds I shot from it two days ago, cleaned it after I got done to minimize problems in the future.

[PenGuin1362]

Just bought a Beretta PX4 >_> happy with it so far for the few rounds i put through it lol

[hobojoe]

Update: Went to the range today, put 200 rounds through the pistol, no failure to feed malfunctions.
God I can now start enjoying my gun 3 months after I got it.

Kimber will receive a " WTF? Why did this happen in the first place? " call tomorrow. But at least my gun is fixed and is now awesome!

[PenGuin1362]

Can't wait until I can buy that same kimber you did, its so pretty :( my new Beretta will entertain me for the time being

[Cortexian]

" WTF? Why did this happen in the first place? " call tomorrow.
Try and get them to send you a laser grip for your troubles :P

[hobojoe]

Try and get them to send you a laser grip for your troubles :P

Ohh I'm Def going get something good out of this

When I went to my annual family shooting trip, I tried showing off my new Kimber when it didn't work ;)

[TVTyrant]

Update: Went to the range today, put 200 rounds through the pistol, no failure to feed malfunctions.
God I can now start enjoying my gun 3 months after I got it.

Kimber will receive a " WTF? Why did this happen in the first place? " call tomorrow. But at least my gun is fixed and is now awesome!
Good idea. I'm curious as well.

[Spartan094]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3167/img0099wr.jpg
Well I got a Mosin Nagant Model 1891/30 with a bayonet made in 1943. Cheap little bastard, then again over 17 million of that model were made. Being made in '43 I'm surprised it doesnt have a real rough finishing to it, seems like it was smoothed and I can't find a real presence of tool marks. Also this is my first ever rifle.

I need a PU 3.5x optics and a legit sling..

[PenGuin1362]

a real, WWII PU scope will run you upwards of $350...that is if you can find one. I paid $430 for mine and it was manufactured in 1943. And you have to be very careful not to get scammed, a lot of people claim they have real WWII PU scopes but there are subtle differences between scopes made prior to 1945 and those after.

Then again if you don't care about authenticity there are a ton of decently priced reproduction scopes out there.

Any questions about it this place has a shit ton of answers
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?3-The-Collector-s-Forum-Mosin-Nagant-HQ

[Spartan094]

Authenticity doesn't bother me much when it comes to scopes, I ain't that hardcore lol. Also thanks for the link.

[sleepy1212]

I ain't that hardcore.
You bought a nugget, no need to repeat yourself.

*zing* :holy:

[Spartan094]

Go back to /k/ son. Don't bring that nugget crap to me.

[hobojoe]

Well just a quick update on the Kimber:

1. Pics:
2181
2182
2183

Second, I have yet to get any wear on getting free stuff :(
The weapon works perfect now, 300 + rounds and no failure to feed malfunctions.

I can now start my love affair with my new Kimber :D

[TeeKup]

I would love to fire that thing.

[PenGuin1362]

How do you like the TLR? I was thinking of picking one up

[hobojoe]

Well I like it now, that it works : /

Honestly, Ive been shooting 1911's for a while now, Kimber is the first one I bought, but they are by far the most accurate.

[PenGuin1362]

I meant the flashlight lol

[Zeph]

Well just a quick update on the Kimber:

1. Pics:
2181
2182
2183

Second, I have yet to get any wear on getting free stuff :(
The weapon works perfect now, 300 + rounds and no failure to feed malfunctions.

I can now start my love affair with my new Kimber :D

Never understood why people attach lights to their guns. Just makes you an easier to recognize target.

Next time you're at a trade show with a company selling them, ask them to enter a dark room with you and use it to figure out where you are. First one who finds out where the other is lives. My uncle has made many a speechless salesmen by doing that.

[hobojoe]

@PenGuin
Woops lol misread that. I enjoy using it, It fits well in my holster and has a strobe function which is very useful at times.
And it come with a lot of different rail slots to be able to fit many guns.

@Zeph
Very true, it's just a personal preference. Each method has there pro's and con's. And different tactics are need to use each method.

[rossmum]

I took the courses so I could hunt as a kid. They aren't that bad.

Freelancer: Yes because your 9mm is soooooo useful in life.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH 9MM PARABELLUM JESUS CHRIST PLEASE EVERYONE STOP PERPETUATING DUMB BULLSHIT MYTHS

it still kills shit just as dead as anything else, unless you are literally fighting a grizzly bear in which case what the fuck are you expecting to do to it with any kind of handgun in the first place

[rossmum]

Well I got a Mosin Nagant Model 1891/30 with a bayonet made in 1943. Cheap little bastard, then again over 17 million of that model were made. Being made in '43 I'm surprised it doesnt have a real rough finishing to it, seems like it was smoothed and I can't find a real presence of tool marks. Also this is my first ever rifle.

I need a PU 3.5x optics and a legit sling..
NO YOU DO NOT NEED A PU DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT TRY AND MAKE AN INFANTRY RIFLE INTO A SNIPER RIFLE.

first issue: you're devaluing the rifle. i know it's a cheap infantry rifle but it will be worth even less if you fuck with it in any way. never refinish, drill and tap, or otherwise fuck with a military surplus or historic firearm unless it is absolutely necessary. you are diminishing its value, collectors won't even give you the time of day, and you're taking away part of the history that makes it own in the first place.

second issue: you are trying to make a sniper rifle out of something that is not a sniper rifle. it will never be as accurate as a sniper rifle. if the soviets did not build it into a sniper rifle themselves that means it failed their accuracy test and therefore mounting optics on it is redundant and a waste of money.

get the sling but do not even consider mounting a pu on that, much less any other kind of optics.

IF YOU WANT A SNIPER RIFLE, EITHER FIND SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THEIR SHIT TO HELP YOU BUY A REAL ONE, OR BUY AN EX-SNIPER AND THEN BUY THE APPROPRIATE OPTICS.

god i go away for a few months and you guys are already having terrible ideas at an alarming rate.

[rossmum]

oh and just as a bit of an addendum to that last post (fuck editing, i don't care if my own thread is a mess), i should soon be the proud owner of a ww2 91/30 sniper. milarm in edmonton has a bunch on sale for like 800 a pop (500 sans optics), the rifles are matching ww2 sniper rifles but the scopes are immediate postwar pus (or so i understand to be the case). the word repro wasn't mentioned anywhere and milarm are apparently pretty reputable guys (dad swears by them) so i'm guessing the scopes were just replaced during a postwar refit. obviously an all-matching rifle and scope would've been better but fucked if i'm going to say no to a legitimate second world war sniper rifle that sure as shit would've seen action which bears a legit soviet military manufacture scope (even if it is a postwar mismatch) for that price when the base infantry rifles go for 300 here.

unless something goes horribly wrong this is gonna own so hard goddamn

[PenGuin1362]

Mine's a forced a sniper from an infantry rifle and the accuracy is just fine. I don't really shoot it much though, I just enjoy the fact that I have it >_> since both the rifle and scope are 1943. Mine is also counter-bored so the accuracy is likely greater than a typical infantry rifle that isn't. I also had it professionally mounted, wood was perfectly cut and re-stained to match. Ross is right though, hard core collectors prefer ex-snipers to be remounted. But as you've explained you are not so this won't hold the same value to you. Personally doesn't bother me, the rifles are abundant and you're more so converting it to another ww2 era weapon as opposed to defacing a beautiful rifle with some modern crap that doesn't belong on it

[TVTyrant]

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH 9MM PARABELLUM JESUS CHRIST PLEASE EVERYONE STOP PERPETUATING DUMB BULLSHIT MYTHS

it still kills shit just as dead as anything else, unless you are literally fighting a grizzly bear in which case what the fuck are you expecting to do to it with any kind of handgun in the first place
More meant that no handgun is especially a useful tool in life, so claiming that the 9mm is more/less useless than a 357 is beyond retarded.

[rossmum]

Mine's a forced a sniper from an infantry rifle and the accuracy is just fine. I don't really shoot it much though, I just enjoy the fact that I have it >_> since both the rifle and scope are 1943. Mine is also counter-bored so the accuracy is likely greater than a typical infantry rifle that isn't. I also had it professionally mounted, wood was perfectly cut and re-stained to match. Ross is right though, hard core collectors prefer ex-snipers to be remounted. But as you've explained you are not so this won't hold the same value to you. Personally doesn't bother me, the rifles are abundant and you're more so converting it to another ww2 era weapon as opposed to defacing a beautiful rifle with some modern crap that doesn't belong on it
not even hardcore collectors. anyone who will knowingly purchase a fucked-with rifle (where the fucked with part is not of some unique interest) is not a collector, they are just buying that rifle because they want that rifle. collectors collect things because of some form of significance, which converted infantry rifles lack.

[PenGuin1362]

In most situations I would agree But given the rare nature of the PU scope and a worthy ex-sniper companion I made an exception in this case. When I was shopping for a rifle to mount the scope on, at the time the ex-snipers I came across were not up to my expectations in conditions. While they lack the authenticity of a real WWII sniper, it's still a 1943 PU scope mounted on a 1943 rifle, which most people can't even get that far, so given the budget I had to work with at the time I'm off to a good start until I come across a worthy rifle.

Also, I found locating an authentic bent bolt just as difficult as finding the damn scope. The bolt on mine isn't even authentic, it came from a guy who has the blueprints and machines his own. This however looks like a nice buy if you have the $1k + to spend on it http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245331164

[TVTyrant]

What would collectors value matter if its a rifle that you are planning to own for the rest of your life? I say modify, tinker, fuck with it. Its your goddamn money. Why are you collecting Nagants if you are looking for re sale prices?

[Spartan094]

Holy shit rossum that post... I'm not and the thought of going to drill to put a scope on never came into mind anyways, I need a bent bolt anyways and a week ago I thought why did I acutely need a scope. But I DID get the sling that was SUPPOSED to go with it and it's missing the back dog collar which annoyed me.

And I wasn't aware I needed to drill to get a scope on. I don't usually bother any gun I get other then shoot, clean, and know how the mechanics of it works I own.

[PenGuin1362]

Yeah for the PU you need to cut out a section of the wood and drill into the side of the receiver. Unless you're a talented gunsmith that's the kind of thing you want to get done professionally. The Mosin Nagant is probably the most fun gun I've owned. It's incredibly simple, but causes so much destruction.

[Warsaw]

All bolt actions are incredibly simple. It blows my mind how they can charge so much for something like a Cheytac which is nothing more than a fancy bolt with a floating barrel and a special bullet. Charging for the ammo? Fine. The gun itself? Get real.

[PenGuin1362]

Interesting picture of a Russian "sniper" however this guy has the scoped SVT-40 it looks like. Apparently this guy had 181 confirmed kills on the Germans http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_9/s_w15_3c10516u.jpg

[rossmum]

All bolt actions are incredibly simple. It blows my mind how they can charge so much for something like a Cheytac which is nothing more than a fancy bolt with a floating barrel and a special bullet. Charging for the ammo? Fine. The gun itself? Get real.
They are machined to extremely fine tolerances and the slightest flaw totally fucks accuracy. They could have one moving part for all the difference it makes, the cost is in the fine machining. They may be a little overpriced for what they are - I'm no metalworker - but to say they should be cheap is ignorant of the work that goes into them.

Re: fucking with old guns just because you 'own' them - this is probably going to bring you cunts down on me like a stack of spoiled kids on the last candy in the jar, but I don't see it as 'owning' so much as 'being custodian of'. In the case of modern rifles that are still on their production run, do what you like, but historical things - I don't fuck with that. There may be 17 million Mosins in the world, but one day that number won't be quite so big, and every non-fucked-up rifle will be a precious treasure from the past. Just think how common duelling pistols and so on were a few hundred years ago versus how rare they are now. I have made a promise to myself that I will never destructively modify anything historical, unless it has already been fucked beyond all help or it is somehow necessary to ensure it survives in at least some form. Hopefully I can drive the same thing into my (hypothetical) kids and them to theirs and so on so that when there are only a handful of relics left from WWII, my rifles will still be there, exactly as they were during the war.

Just got back in from some hunting. This just in: don't stand too close to something you're about to put down with .30-30. My jeans are kind of splattered with brains. :ohdear:

[TVTyrant]

They are machined to extremely fine tolerances and the slightest flaw totally fucks accuracy. They could have one moving part for all the difference it makes, the cost is in the fine machining. They may be a little overpriced for what they are - I'm no metalworker - but to say they should be cheap is ignorant of the work that goes into them.

Re: fucking with old guns just because you 'own' them - this is probably going to bring you cunts down on me like a stack of spoiled kids on the last candy in the jar, but I don't see it as 'owning' so much as 'being custodian of'. In the case of modern rifles that are still on their production run, do what you like, but historical things - I don't fuck with that. There may be 17 million Mosins in the world, but one day that number won't be quite so big, and every non-fucked-up rifle will be a precious treasure from the past. Just think how common duelling pistols and so on were a few hundred years ago versus how rare they are now. I have made a promise to myself that I will never destructively modify anything historical, unless it has already been fucked beyond all help or it is somehow necessary to ensure it survives in at least some form. Hopefully I can drive the same thing into my (hypothetical) kids and them to theirs and so on so that when there are only a handful of relics left from WWII, my rifles will still be there, exactly as they were during the war.

Just got back in from some hunting. This just in: don't stand too close to something you're about to put down with .30-30. My jeans are kind of splattered with brains. :ohdear:
What did you go hunting for?

[Cortexian]

I hate headshots when hunting, the brains get in everything.

[TVTyrant]

Finally getting around to it. I'm going to buy a Yugo M48 in the next few weeks. Big 5 has some, and I am waiting for a sale.

[rossmum]

What did you go hunting for?
Pests. Foxes, rabbits mostly.

I like the actual hunting part but I feel horrible actually killing things, even when they're an invasive pest. I think that the next trip might be the last where I actually shoot.

I'll just set up an elaborate course of Figure 11 and 12 targets instead and shoot at those :haw:

[TVTyrant]

Pests. Foxes, rabbits mostly.

I like the actual hunting part but I feel horrible actually killing things, even when they're an invasive pest. I think that the next trip might be the last where I actually shoot.

I'll just set up an elaborate course of Figure 11 and 12 targets instead and shoot at those :haw:
You ever try for Sambar or for Rusa? I have always been interested in big game in Australia/New Zealand.

[rossmum]

You ever try for Sambar or for Rusa? I have always been interested in big game in Australia/New Zealand.
I have absolutely no idea what either of those things are, and I wasn't aware there was any large game in this country (unless you decided to shoot up some poor fucker's cattle). Biggest thing I've ever seen in this country that anyone shoots at are deer (not native, brought out here specifically for hunting and actually protected to avoid being wiped out as they don't want to have to re-introduce them), but more typically people here go after foxes, pigs, or kangaroos if they've got the go ahead to cull the latter (protected, but only a few species are actually endangered).

[Spartan094]

On a side note which should I get next? SKS that is wood (don't care if its yugo or russian w/e) and is original or a AK47 or 74 (I hear there are dangers to some manufacturers or something fucking up). I'm leaning more towards a SKS.

[Cortexian]

So apparently there's a Vulcan Cannon from one of our Canadian CF-18's sitting sized in US customs. It jammed while on exercise so we figured we'd send it back to the manufacturer, except we took it out of the CF-18 which changes its legal designation somehow. Apparently it's okay to fly the CF-18's around and into approved international airspace and such when they're whole because it's classed as a defense exercise or something. Once you take the gun out of the plane though it becomes classed as its own thing, a Vulcan Cannon...

You'd think the governments would have some kinds of laws or regulations in place for this kind of incident, but apparently the US Customs sized it when we tried to ship it to the manufacturer... Since it jammed it has "live ammunition" in it still, even though one of these Cannon's is designed to crumple in on itself in event of a jam so it doesn't shred the aircraft. So there's a chunk of crushed metal with a few barrels sticking out of it stuck in US Customs because laws regarding firearms are completely silly.

Obviously I don't know all the exact details, I just got this story from a friend of mine who was working at CFB Bagotville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Bagotville) over the summer.

[Warsaw]

They are machined to extremely fine tolerances and the slightest flaw totally fucks accuracy. They could have one moving part for all the difference it makes, the cost is in the fine machining. They may be a little overpriced for what they are - I'm no metalworker - but to say they should be cheap is ignorant of the work that goes into them.

Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.

[TVTyrant]

Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.
Depends on the way you manufacture tbh.

[Warsaw]

Yes it does. And I can tell you that military weapons are all done by machine. No man is going to be as consistently accurate with his milling. That said, there are some very (!) fine rifles that are hand-made in the world. They are nice in a different way to something like the Chey-Tac. Instead of being cold, clean-cut precision, they are made of quality materials, boast classy lines, have traditional detailing, and feature close-fitting parts. They are guns with a human touch instead of clinically efficient killing machines. Gunsmiths of this caliber are a vanishing breed.

[rossmum]

So apparently there's a Vulcan Cannon from one of our Canadian CF-18's sitting sized in US customs. It jammed while on exercise so we figured we'd send it back to the manufacturer, except we took it out of the CF-18 which changes its legal designation somehow. Apparently it's okay to fly the CF-18's around and into approved international airspace and such when they're whole because it's classed as a defense exercise or something. Once you take the gun out of the plane though it becomes classed as its own thing, a Vulcan Cannon...

You'd think the governments would have some kinds of laws or regulations in place for this kind of incident, but apparently the US Customs sized it when we tried to ship it to the manufacturer... Since it jammed it has "live ammunition" in it still, even though one of these Cannon's is designed to crumple in on itself in event of a jam so it doesn't shred the aircraft. So there's a chunk of crushed metal with a few barrels sticking out of it stuck in US Customs because laws regarding firearms are completely silly.

Obviously I don't know all the exact details, I just got this story from a friend of mine who was working at CFB Bagotville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Bagotville) over the summer.
And we all know what a huge shitfight there would be if the roles were reversed in this incident.


Guns are actually incredibly cheap, believe it or not. It's not being ignorant, it's knowing the cost of materials; steel and aluminum are both high economical metals. If the gun were made out of straight titanium, ok, fine. It isn't, though. I'm also going to call bullshit on anyone who says there's labor involved because unlike gunsmiths of yore, the new stuff is CNC machined. There is no guy painstakingly standing over a metal lathe or a mill doing this by hand. If a machined piece doesn't make the cut, they throw it in the scrap bin and melt it back down. No, they are charging an arm and a leg simply because their gun is accurate. That's a good merit, but if I'm going to drop $14,000 to kill a target, I'll put a 155 on his head or put a few .50s down range. Infinitely more cost-effective. At this point, sniper rifle accuracy is a defense firm wank-fest. Current rifles are already more than adequate for the jobs they must do; I have never heard any complaints from any of my military friends or their comrades about the M82 platform, or the M40, or the M24, etc. etc.
Guns don't design themselves. Steel and aluminium may be cheap but certain blends used for various parts are not. Precision machining, by hand or by CNC, requires precision tooling which is in itself exceptionally expensive. If you were to try and build a Sten right now, it would cost you a motherfucking fortune because the tools and stamping jigs would need to be made up - and this is just a shitty tube gun we're talking about, something the Resistance in Europe used to make in garages with stolen barrel blanks and plumbing supplies.

The cost is not in the gun, it's in the tools used to make it, the materials and mixes thereof, the R&D costs, and so forth. Unless you're talking about HK, in which case they are just gouging you for a stamped-steel CETME clone. Their newer stuff is pretty neat but they still overcharge. Precision rifles are actually expensive for legitimate reasons.

[Warsaw]

It's a one time cost though. After selling a couple thousand units at $14,000 a piece, you've already recouped that entire cost. Trust me, it's about making money. I think you are underestimating how simple firearms actually are. As far as the Chey-tac is concerned, most of that R&D cost was likely not even in the rifle itself; it was in the .408 bullet and that range finder/spotting scope/glorified calculator.

With the tools I have at home (this is just me, because I have a shitload of power tools and table tools and hand tools), I could easily build a machine gun if I set my mind to it, let alone a bolt-action rifle. I can build a foundry and a forge for next to nothing to smelt things and make my own alloys if I have to. I can read up on ballistic physics and do some ballistic testing while changing variables such as rifling number, rate of twist, barrel length, round size, shape, weight, etc. Really, the costs are for the man hours, not the machines or the materials.

Now, while on the subject of home gunsmithy, I would like to take a box-lock and build an over-under pistol for firing slug. Just for shits and giggles.

[TVTyrant]

Bought 150 rounds of 8mm Mauser ammo today. Tomorrow I will go out and purchase my rifle. I cannot produce pictures at present because:
A) I am a terrible photographer.
B) My camera sucks
C) I honestly cannot find my USB connector.

Thus you are all spared from the horrors of my photography.

[PenGuin1362]

On a side note which should I get next? SKS that is wood (don't care if its yugo or russian w/e) and is original or a AK47 or 74 (I hear there are dangers to some manufacturers or something fucking up). I'm leaning more towards a SKS.

I have heard horror stories about AK's in the past. Mostly from shitty American knock offs. Romanian AK's I've heard are okay. Ideally you want a Russian one, but due to their rarity in the states, they aren't as cheap here as you'd thing. I've always wanted an SKS, just because it'd be a fun little target gun. Cheap, but powerful ammo, and semi-automatic. I just always put off getting one for something else.

[Warsaw]

Get a Saiga and have it converted into an AK by a gunsmith. Ted Marshall is a well-known Saiga to AK converter.

[TVTyrant]

As far as the AK goes, any model is fine, but I wouldn't suggest ordering online. Gunshows/sporting goods stores are the best places to get one. The typical version of the Romanian AKM is the WASR-10/63, which doesn't have a dimple over the magazine port. This usually means that the magazine will shake in place, and occasionally cause mis feeds or magazines to drop out.
The GP-75 is a better version of the WASR-10/63 that has the dimple on the port. A big part of the difference is that these use lower receivers that happen to feature the dimple. Supposedly the rest of the parts (which unlike the American made lowers were made in Romania) are of higher quality as well, but I can't vouch for this.
Everything I hear about the Polish Tantal is good, except it is supposedly hard to replace the rear stock. It is a 5.45, which in my mind doesn't really matter except no non-import ammo is available for it at current standing.
Bulgarian, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, and Polish 7.62 or 5.45 models are usually pretty similar. There are obvious aesthetic differences, but all are nice rifles.
I have no idea whether the Russian guns are actually of higher quality or not. I am sure some are, but I wouldn't bet against the idea there are some real dogs out there. The Saiga is nice but requires work to modify it into using standard AK mags.

Personally I really like the SKS by comparison to the AK, but thats a matter of personal preference.

http://www.jgsales.com/images/1%20Romanian%20AK47%20WASR10%207.62x39%201501126.j pg
WASR. Note the lack of a dimple over the magazine.

http://www.jgsales.com/images/_MG_5901.JPG

GP75 rifle. Notice the dimple.

[Warsaw]

Ew, AKM copy. I'm a fan of the milled receiver, Type III AK-47 myself.

Russian guns and Bulgarian guns are usually on the same level. Hungarian and Romanian are perfectly functional and chrome-lined, but the hardware isn't as polished as Russian or Bulgarian. Yugo is generally trash because they don't chrome-line the barrels.

Also look out for East German stuff; it's generally up to par with Russian-made because most of it was made under the direct watch of the Soviet government.

[rossmum]

It's a one time cost though. After selling a couple thousand units at $14,000 a piece, you've already recouped that entire cost. Trust me, it's about making money. I think you are underestimating how simple firearms actually are. As far as the Chey-tac is concerned, most of that R&D cost was likely not even in the rifle itself; it was in the .408 bullet and that range finder/spotting scope/glorified calculator.

With the tools I have at home (this is just me, because I have a shitload of power tools and table tools and hand tools), I could easily build a machine gun if I set my mind to it, let alone a bolt-action rifle. I can build a foundry and a forge for next to nothing to smelt things and make my own alloys if I have to. I can read up on ballistic physics and do some ballistic testing while changing variables such as rifling number, rate of twist, barrel length, round size, shape, weight, etc. Really, the costs are for the man hours, not the machines or the materials.

Now, while on the subject of home gunsmithy, I would like to take a box-lock and build an over-under pistol for firing slug. Just for shits and giggles.
Have fun rifling a barrel to any kind of functional standard, let alone a good functional standard. Most of the other processes involved in making a tube gun are pretty easy and can be done at home, but rifling is extremely difficult to do outside of a properly tooled-up factory. Most people who build their own guns either buy pre-made barrels or are forced to waste money and time making five or six attempts before they finally get one that works.

Also, with regards to AKs: WASRs are pretty shitty (they're known for their sights being canted), but they aren't dangerous shitty as far as I'm aware. Frankly the US is only hurting itself with its stupid (and illegal) trade protectionist bullshit, US-made parts are nearly always inferior to foreign parts and you end up making a perfectly good, fully functional, safe weapon either less functional or even unsafe because of the stupidity that is 922(r). Rather than tell American manufacturers (especially S&W) to harden the fuck up and make good guns if they wanted to save their business, the government enforced that stupid shitty law. As a result, unfucked-with foreign guns are extortionately priced, and the fucked-with ones aren't always safe because American parts are generally rubbish or even in the case of the best manufacturers, out of spec.

[Warsaw]

That law was more to make it harder for people to obtain Eastern Bloc "assault weapon" parts than it was to protect US firearm manufacturers. Just another form of gun control. Back then, US firearms were still pretty good, and if you bought a firearm that was made here to begin with, they are still pretty good. What suck are the US-made replacement parts for foreign weapons. Well no shit the US part is going to suck more, they don't give a flying fuck about the competition. They'd rather you buy one of their shiny, new AR-15s than parts to make your imported AK legal.

As for the rifling: I will just go buy/make a button-rifling machine. I also think you underestimate exactly what kind of tools I have access to. Besides, I'm not talking about tube guns, I'm talking about smelting the iron and making the steel myself, casting it into ingots, milling it into shape, then boring it out if I have to (though I can readily acquire the appropriate steel stock, so I don't need to). Finally, electroplating the chrome lining on the inside of the barrel. I'm not trying to make the next sniper rifle, but you claiming that guns are expensive to manufacture is laughable at best, face-palming at worst. They are just making it expensive because they can command that price, not because it cost them that much to make. It's like Apple products: the iPhone is made for around $115, but commands a $600 price because people want it badly enough. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

And yes, making a barrel would actually be fun.

[TVTyrant]

Also, with regards to AKs: WASRs are pretty shitty (they're known for their sights being canted), but they aren't dangerous shitty as far as I'm aware. Frankly the US is only hurting itself with its stupid (and illegal) trade protectionist bullshit, US-made parts are nearly always inferior to foreign parts and you end up making a perfectly good, fully functional, safe weapon either less functional or even unsafe because of the stupidity that is 922(r). Rather than tell American manufacturers (especially S&W) to harden the fuck up and make good guns if they wanted to save their business, the government enforced that stupid shitty law. As a result, unfucked-with foreign guns are extortionately priced, and the fucked-with ones aren't always safe because American parts are generally rubbish or even in the case of the best manufacturers, out of spec.
Not whats wrong at all in the US. The whole point of the US receiver is that its missing a slot where the selector switch could have three selections. That way its either automatic/safe or semi-automatic/safe, rather than being automatic/semi-automatic/safe. 922(R) is different entirely. The moment you put a pistol grip/handguard/magazine/anything other than the receiver that is American made on their you have to have six parts on it that are American made. I agree that 922(R) is a terrible law (that never gets enforced), but I dont see why its wrong to make the receiver so you only have two options.

[rossmum]

That law was more to make it harder for people to obtain Eastern Bloc "assault weapon" parts than it was to protect US firearm manufacturers. Just another form of gun control. Back then, US firearms were still pretty good, and if you bought a firearm that was made here to begin with, they are still pretty good. What suck are the US-made replacement parts for foreign weapons. Well no shit the US part is going to suck more, they don't give a flying fuck about the competition. They'd rather you buy one of their shiny, new AR-15s than parts to make your imported AK legal.
Counterpoint: everything S&W made during the 90s and right up to the M&P line. Especially the Sigma.


As for the rifling: I will just go buy/make a button-rifling machine. I also think you underestimate exactly what kind of tools I have access to. Besides, I'm not talking about tube guns, I'm talking about smelting the iron and making the steel myself, casting it into ingots, milling it into shape, then boring it out if I have to (though I can readily acquire the appropriate steel stock, so I don't need to). Finally, electroplating the chrome lining on the inside of the barrel. I'm not trying to make the next sniper rifle, but you claiming that guns are expensive to manufacture is laughable at best, face-palming at worst. They are just making it expensive because they can command that price, not because it cost them that much to make. It's like Apple products: the iPhone is made for around $115, but commands a $600 price because people want it badly enough. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

And yes, making a barrel would actually be fun.
I don't think you're grasping the difficulty of actually making a working, functional barrel. They are not easy to make at all, even with the right machinery - pretty much every time I've seen someone try it, they end up with about five times as many aborted attempts as they do working examples. There are good reasons people avoid doing it themselves.

I honestly don't know what to tell you at this point. Precision tooling costs a lot unless you want to be replacing broken parts constantly, and things like heat treatment have to be done to very stringent standards for a weapon to be safe, let alone of any particular quality. There are large commerical firms that have been building weapons for decades and still can't do it right, don't pay it off as cheap and easy just because you have the tools to machine metal or some background in metalwork. Actually building a working, safe, commercial-quality firearm is a whole new level and I really don't think you appreciate the number of headaches involved.

I've seen an awful lot of people say they would have no trouble making a weapon at home only to realise halfway through that it's not nearly as easy as they think.


Not whats wrong at all in the US. The whole point of the US receiver is that its missing a slot where the selector switch could have three selections. That way its either automatic/safe or semi-automatic/safe, rather than being automatic/semi-automatic/safe. 922(R) is different entirely. The moment you put a pistol grip/handguard/magazine/anything other than the receiver that is American made on their you have to have six parts on it that are American made. I agree that 922(R) is a terrible law (that never gets enforced), but I dont see why its wrong to make the receiver so you only have two options.
It has nothing at all to do with selector switches. It is a parts count law, not a receiver law. 922(r) was created at a time when the US firearms industry was in the shitter (S&W in particular) because everyone was buying better, cheaper foreign guns. The same US companies pushed hard for the law to be passed just as they have previously fucked gun owners in the past. 922(r) always has been and always will be an illegal trade-protectionist policy designed to force people into throwing money at American companies that couldn't keep themselves afloat without that law.

To give you an example, a guy I know was building an FAL. He had basically a full Belgian rifle (ex-Austrian Army), but decided to replace some of the guts of the rifle with US parts so he could keep the furniture that came with it as he felt it gave the rifle a nice character. He got DSA parts for the FCG (for those not in the know, DSA are basically the main guys you go to in the US for FAL parts and are considered probably the best US-based manufacturer for them), and found his rifle was continually firing in two round bursts. The engagement surfaces on several parts were out of spec with the Belgian parts that remained inside the FCG, and not in a way that was easily remedied. The end result? He had to replace the furniture and some other part (I think it was the dust cover) so he could keep the FCG all Belgian and avoid an unsafe rifle that could also bring the ATF down on him for unintentionally having created a 'machine gun'.

If the law was simply 'get a receiver which has no provision for automatic fire' (which it is not, not even by a long shot), I would agree with you, but the requirement to not only use a US-made part but several US-made parts, many of which can have nothing to do with the weapon's function as far as the ATF cares, gives it away for the bullshit it is.

[TVTyrant]

It has nothing at all to do with selector switches. It is a parts count law, not a receiver law. 922(r) was created at a time when the US firearms industry was in the shitter (S&W in particular) because everyone was buying better, cheaper foreign guns. The same US companies pushed hard for the law to be passed just as they have previously fucked gun owners in the past. 922(r) always has been and always will be an illegal trade-protectionist policy designed to force people into throwing money at American companies that couldn't keep themselves afloat without that law.

To give you an example, a guy I know was building an FAL. He had basically a full Belgian rifle (ex-Austrian Army), but decided to replace some of the guts of the rifle with US parts so he could keep the furniture that came with it as he felt it gave the rifle a nice character. He got DSA parts for the FCG (for those not in the know, DSA are basically the main guys you go to in the US for FAL parts and are considered probably the best US-based manufacturer for them), and found his rifle was continually firing in two round bursts. The engagement surfaces on several parts were out of spec with the Belgian parts that remained inside the FCG, and not in a way that was easily remedied. The end result? He had to replace the furniture and some other part (I think it was the dust cover) so he could keep the FCG all Belgian and avoid an unsafe rifle that could also bring the ATF down on him for unintentionally having created a 'machine gun'.

If the law was simply 'get a receiver which has no provision for automatic fire' (which it is not, not even by a long shot), I would agree with you, but the requirement to not only use a US-made part but several US-made parts, many of which can have nothing to do with the weapon's function as far as the ATF cares, gives it away for the bullshit it is.
I am aware of the first fact and said so in my post. But the compliance law does include a regulation on the receiver you can use and what selectors it is compliant with. There is the second part, and thats an interesting point about the 90's US industry that is true for the most part, but the provision is there and I agree with iu.

[Warsaw]

@Ross: I don't operate the same way those people who think they can just make a barrel do. I research thoroughly how to do things and then I do several practise runs to get the technique down before attempting the real deal. I've also already made a hinge-action shotgun, except that was a joint venture between me and a buddy in Roanoke, and he took it home since he spent the money for the material. Granted, a shotgun doesn't have rifling, but I'm no ignorant Joe Schmoe to gunsmithing.

Besides that, I'm telling you that only the initial investment for the tools is expensive and they've more than made it back after selling a couple thousand units at $15k a piece. Bottom line is that the actual manufacture of a firearm is cheap. It's R&D and tooling that cost money, and those are one-time deals. You have to spend that to manufacture any product, not just firearms.

Guns. Are. Cheap. Period. Cost is driven by demand for that particular firearm's capabilities. A sniper rifle is a steel tube that can guide a bullet down-range better than a regular steel tube. That doesn't mean it isn't still a steel tube.

[TVTyrant]

The most expensive part of a firearm is the taxes.

[Spartan094]

I will probably get a SKS sometime this year if i can. I like it over the AK but that's just me.

[Spartan094]

Bumpity
http://spartan094.codebrainshideout.net/Weapons/Russian/Semi_Auto/IMAG0228.jpg
Found a Russian SKS made in 1951 by Izhevsk. I checked it thoroughly and I liked it. Made sure the bore was in good condition and wood stock at the back wasn't cracked at all. The price for it atm is $500 but I disagree with it. I MIGHT go Monday if I have the time and make a offer on it for $450 I guess or try to get it near that range. That is if somebody else hasn't bought it yet.

The only thing I'm aware of doing currently to it is cleaning the bayonet since it looks a tad dirty.

E: sorry for the blurry picture, looked fine on my Evo 3d.

[Warsaw]

EVO 3D's are infamous for their blurry pictures, even by HTC standards. That said, looks pretty good. Check for hairline cracks all around.

[Spartan094]

EVO 3D's are infamous for their blurry pictures, even by HTC standards. That said, looks pretty good. Check for hairline cracks all around.
Yeah I gotta touch the object on the screen so it focuses in. And I will check for hairline cracks tomorrow if they aren't closed and get another picture or two.

[PenGuin1362]

$450 is probably a good price. But Russian made sks's are becoming less common so don't be surprised at a higher price.

[rossmum]

Dad's rifles are finally here, minus the shotgun since someone in the family thought it would be a great idea to take the plug out and not put it back in. Customs have seized that and since they want $400 to ship it back to Canada I guess he'll just buy a new one here. Getting the rifles over has cost over a grand now and several had to be fucked with to comply with import standards (which guns already in the country don't have to comply with at all). Fuck Australia forever. I'll see if I can bring in the Mosin myself, which should reduce the cost of importing from like $1500 to $50, but that's contingent upon how much the rifle needs to be fucked with to get it in - hopefully just some red nail polish I can strip off when it gets in and that's it, but I'm not holding my breath.

God I cannot wait to get out of this shithole.

[PenGuin1362]

are you going into Canada? or in Australia? Either way fuck customs and stupid gun laws. 99% of the restrictions imposed on guns don't make them any less lethal or effective at killing.

[Cortexian]

No, but they limit you killing effectiveness.

Round limitations in magazines here in Canada are a good example of that, but anyone that wants can just go buy a pinned 30 round AR mag and unpin it (illegally, but if you're going to commit a crime with it, well, welp~). So it's not really a good solution.

[TVTyrant]

No, but they limit you killing effectiveness.

Round limitations in magazines here in Canada are a good example of that, but anyone that wants can just go buy a pinned 30 round AR mag and unpin it (illegally, but if you're going to commit a crime with it, well, welp~). So it's not really a good solution.
Or just buy them by the truckload in the US and haul them up using a logging road.

[PenGuin1362]

Firearm regulations impose restrictions on law abiding citizens. Someone who really wants to go on a killing spree, will get whatever then need whenever they need it through illegal ways. (There's always exceptions, but for the most part this is how it is)

[Cortexian]

Exactly, but if there were no restrictions then it would still make it easier for criminals to get their hands on more effective killing devices. There will always have to be a balance on imposed regulations and what law-abiding citizens want.

After-all, if there were no baddies then the only reason firearms would exist is for hunting. That would mean a focus on accuracy and reliability for a single shot instead of semi-automatics and such.

[Patrickssj6]

Let's not turn this thread into a
http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/troll-troll-dad-monocle-l.png

[Cortexian]

Wrong thread? Or you completely misunderstood I think...

[p0lar_bear]

No, Lancer, it's just that we've been down the whole gun regulations debate road a thousand times before and I think we're just putting a damper on it now. It's Modacity's 2nd oldest dead horse to flog, up there with ripping.

[PenGuin1362]

Neither of us were trolling, simply debating the issues with firearm regulations. Since I'm sure we both share a similar love for guns. For example, in America regulations vary from state to state. In New Hampshire or Vermont (usually live in one or the other) I have almost no restrictions on firearms other than being a NH resident I need to have a license to carry a concealed and loaded firearm (which I have). Other than that everything from automatics to suppressed weapons, hell suppressed automatic rifles are legal. They are incredibly expensive and fall under class III requiring that you pay a $200 tax stamp on top of the fee, but still legal. This to me makes sense.

But where it starts to get ridiculous is when you get to the "Assault" weapons ban. States like Connecticut, New Jersey, California (obviously) ban aspects of rifles that they feel are solely for the purpose of an assault weapon and therefore no civilian should need them. Things like a telescoping stock (because that makes me 100% more deadly than a fixed stock that's at most 5" longer), flash hiders, because for some reason this makes you invisible when shooting and has no application for target shooting. Not like it helps manage muzzle climb or anything....California for a while had actually specifically banned the AK-47 and AK patterned rifles. I haven't kept up much with recent regulations over there so don't know how it still goes. And some of states still ban the owning of "high capacity magazines"....meaning anything greater than 20.

There's tons of other regulations similar to this that honestly I think are ridiculous and again have no affect on your ability to kill. Someone with a ar-15 carbine with a 20 round mag and a fixed stock with no flash hider can be just as deadly as someone with an ar-15 carbine WITH the telescoping stock, flash hider and 30 round magazine. Not all regulations are worthless, many exist for a reason, but things like this I just think makes no difference.

[Cortexian]

I thought California has some silly rule where you needed to have THREE things on a firearm that were classed as "assault weapons parts" for it to be illegal.

[TVTyrant]

I thought California has some silly rule where you needed to have THREE things on a firearm that were classed as "assault weapons parts" for it to be illegal.
True statement. Thats why I never venture to the People's Republic of California.

[Cortexian]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not really debating the laws right now, just discussing them. I don't live in the USA so I don't really KNOW the laws down there.

This guy is awesome though:
63GiXzpfGhA

lTUQFV95WXE

The interview with the guy in the crowd was planned earlier, and they organized their presence with the Police beforehand as well so they knew what was going on. There was a plain cloths officer attached to each guy with a firearm in their group at the event so that they could make sure everything went well. I think this is a great way to show how open carry works well.

EDIT - This is great:
Z1e7EBze6ho

The funny part is that the checkpoint is placed really badly, and that you can totally (legally) question officers back just like he does in the video. At least here in Canada you can, I assume you can in that state as well since they're doing it in the video. Not really sure what organization the checkpoint guys are with though so.

If I ever drive into the USA, any cool things like this I can do on camera? Can I legally film through a checkpoint?

[TVTyrant]

Because this thread has been dead for a month, I figured I'd post some pics of my guns, starting with my ancient as fuck Remington 721. Tis a .30-06, and the ammo I posted it with are 165 grain Hornady Superperformance, which are listed at a very fast 2960 FPS. This is the load I use for all of my rifle hunting.
242924302431

[Cortexian]

We use 165grain SuperPerformance as well, we debated carrying some 190 around for Elk and Moose but in all likelihood it won't make that much of a difference. .30-06 is bad ass enough as is.

If you want to be pimp you use 168 grain Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8194/winchestersupremeballis.jpg

Little more money but it looks awesome!!

[TVTyrant]

I hate that Remington and Winchester haven't gotten with the program of using mixed powders. It makes their ammo seem worthless lol. Plus its all super overpriced.

[sleepy1212]

never noticed much difference between the ballistic tips and regular cor-lok psp's.

just stay away from that Federal Fusion. it's horrible ammo and I've watched 3 other shooters and myself all with different rifles not able to shoot a group with it. it's maddening to sight in with. otherwise federal is pretty decent.

[Cortexian]

At least its not fucking Weatherby .30-378. Talk about overpriced proprietary ammo. $7/round.

[TVTyrant]

Who do you know who has a 30-378?

And ​why?!?!?!?!?!

[Cortexian]

Friends dad.

Moose/Elk at long range.

[TVTyrant]

Long range moose ftw? I guess you are in Super Eastern Oregon, as we call Alberta here, so you guys probably have plenty of moose.

BTW what kind of deer y'all got? We've just got blacktails and mulies here.

[hobojoe]

I'm sorry but I have to cry to other fellow gun owners here.
California just banned the right to openly carry an unloaded handgun in public settings, ( On top of gun free zones and schools )
Starting Jan 1st 2012 it will be a misdemeanour ( 1 year in jail and/or $1,000 fine )

And there's no way in hell they are gonna just start handing out CCW's to everybody.

In my county it's almost impossible to get a CCW, so I'm SOL there.

Long guns are still legal to openly carry unloaded. You guys gonna see some interesting pictures this next year with me walking around with my AR-15

[TVTyrant]

...Unloaded long guns? How do people hunt? :o Fuck the People's Republik of Kalifornia.

[PenGuin1362]

California sucks. Just to piss them off I'd start carrying around an AR-15 on my shoulder. Even though it can't have a flash hider, telescoping stock, 20 round magazine, or anything that makes it fun.

[hobojoe]

Well I like to carry cause there's almost a shooting every other day here in cali.
Idiot politicians don't seem to grasp the idea of self defence, idk I just gotta get outta here.

And from what i saw the other day in a video, there now working on the banning of long rifle open carry!

Seriously! WTF Merica??

[Cortexian]

Long range moose ftw? I guess you are in Super Eastern Oregon, as we call Alberta here, so you guys probably have plenty of moose.

BTW what kind of deer y'all got? We've just got blacktails and mulies here.
Yeah we usually see a lot of Moose, seen quite a few Elk this year, never got one of either before myself... Here's hoping!


I'm sorry but I have to cry to other fellow gun owners here.
California just banned the right to openly carry an unloaded handgun in public settings, ( On top of gun free zones and schools )
Starting Jan 1st 2012 it will be a misdemeanour ( 1 year in jail and/or $1,000 fine )

And there's no way in hell they are gonna just start handing out CCW's to everybody.

In my county it's almost impossible to get a CCW, so I'm SOL there.

Long guns are still legal to openly carry unloaded. You guys gonna see some interesting pictures this next year with me walking around with my AR-15
As I'm Canadian and we civilians already have a literally-standing-right-beside-next-to-impossible time getting an ATC (Authorization To Carry) permit, I'm not sure how your laws work... What is the point of carrying an unloaded handgun/long gun? Can you still have a loaded magazine on your person if shit-hits-the-fan?

Can you legally shoot someone in self-defense in Cali?
Can you legally shoot someone in the USA if you're under justifiable duress like a Police Officer?

Or is it more like the UN Peacekeepers, where you can't technically shoot a guy who through a grenade at you since because he threw it, he is now technically unarmed (just a silly law I'm using as an example).

[EX12693]

I think in Cali it's legal to open carry an unloaded firearm and carry a loaded magazine on your person.
I'd have to double check to make sore, but maybe I should seeing as how I live in LA...

[sleepy1212]

In many states you can legally shoot someone who won't get out of your yard provided you can justify it as self defense.

Kalifornia is on track to make posting in a shooters thread a thought-crime (Kapital offense).

[EX12693]

Onoes it's the thought police.

[TVTyrant]

In the US it is legal to shoot someone in self defense, but only if you shoot them in the front. You are also required to use lethal force if you fire at someone since you are liable for their injuries due to our fucking retarded justice system.

[hobojoe]

What is the point of carrying an unloaded handgun/long gun? Can you still have a loaded magazine on your person if shit-hits-the-fan?

Yes you can. To put it simply, It's better than nothing. Since it's almost impossible to get a CCW in Cali

Can you legally shoot someone in self-defense in Cali?

Yes

Can you legally shoot someone in the USA if you're under justifiable duress like a Police Officer?

If you mean self defence then yes, in Cali you had better be the one who shot second. The first shot always gets the blame. No matter who it is.

Or is it more like the UN Peacekeepers, where you can't technically shoot a guy who through a grenade at you since because he threw it, he is now technically unarmed (just a silly law I'm using as an example).

Uhhh no, If you are going to draw any weapon on anybody. It had better be for a good reason, and there's always going to be the stupid " Well if he threw the grenade he was unarmed " Lawyers. But we have a right to defend ourself's, but we need to keep the laws clear in our heads.
I <3 my Kimber

[Warsaw]

Lol, California. It's like a Bizzarro mini-Europe.

[TVTyrant]

About to leave on a 3.5 day elk crusade. Wish me luck guys!

[sleepy1212]

:hist101:

[Cortexian]

Picked up two pairs of these:
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2864/supremeprox2.jpg

:)

[TVTyrant]

Are those the awesome radio/electric ones?

[Cortexian]

Yeah, Supreme Pro-X models. They have AUX in (3.5mm) so you can hookup whatever you want, comms, music player, phone, etc.. And they are electronic noise cancelling. Been wearing the set that's out of the box since I got them today and it's hard to tell the difference between normal hearing and what the cans play back for you.

The Pro-X's have 5 volume levels, the two top ones are actually "enhanced hearing" and I'm not shitting you, it's creepy how well it enhances everything. I heard my cat taking a shit in his litter box two-floors away from me and I can hear my PC fans anywhere in my house.

[rossmum]

Lol, California. It's like a Bizzarro mini-Europe.
Except it's still miles right of pretty much anywhere in Europe politically speaking, which is hilarious and depressing all at once.

I'm going to make a post that may/may not start some interesting discussion here. Please do not take it as an excuse to shit up my thread.

I am so far left-leaning that it's not funny, yet I really, really enjoy shooting. I find myself unable to discuss guns with people who share my political views or politics with fellow shooters, because the moment I do so with either I am immediately A Bad Guy and can expect them to come after me with flaming torches and pitchforks. Why the fuck is it that people aren't allowed to see socialism as a good thing and want corporations to be tightly regulated and love going out for a bit of a shoot at the same time? At what point was it decided that people who like shooting are baby killing fascists (for the left) or people who like anything ending in 'ism' and not beginning with 'capital' are filthy commie scum who want to release rapists from jail and squander ARE TAX DOLLARS? The shooting community is already being threatened on a daily basis by politicians from both sides of the table wanting to ban more and more fun, you'd think the least we could fucking do is put aside our differences and put up a united front.

Then again, a lot of the discussions I overhear from fellow shooters make me feel pretty ashamed to be one. I can sort of understand why people think we're all crazy when the first thing I see walking into a gunstore is a fucking Confederate flag. In fucking Australia.

:|

e.

Fuck two-party systems. Politics is not something that should be clearly divided into left and right with no crossover between the two.

[Warsaw]

Hence the "Bizzarro" part...

[PenGuin1362]

Hence it still sucks. So about a month ago I put the Magpul AFG on my rifle and gotta say, don't think I'll ever go back to the vertical grip. I'll either keep it standard or with the AFG.

[hobojoe]

Just picked up a WASR-10 Romanian AK-47 for $375. Not bad for a 7.62X39, and it shoots like a champ.

Fucking California is so stupid with this bullet button shit, fuckin thing fell apart after 3 mags, lol what a joke.

[Spartan094]

Don't forget all the other hideous laws they have in place.

[PenGuin1362]

If I were to pick up an AK in the near future, probably snag one from these guys
http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/product.php?productid=1&cat=21&page=1
L (http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/product.php?productid=1&cat=21&page=1)ittle pricey compared to most AK's but I hear good things. Plus the receivers are Russian made, both milled and stamped. The rest I think is manufactured in the US

[TVTyrant]

I love their 5.56 AKs :smugoff:

[Cortexian]

Saiga-12 or bust

[PenGuin1362]

Almost picked one up the other day. they had like 5 at the store, sadly my responsible side kicked in :( Also got a Midwest Industries fore end rail for the AR-15 for christmas :) can't wait to be all tacticool.

[Cortexian]

shotguns are my favorite weapon system by far, they do so much more than a regular rifle.

[Warsaw]

^ This

Deficiencies of smooth-bores can be compensated for with fins. You don't NEED rifling for fins, as demonstrated by the M1A2 main gun.

[PenGuin1362]

I'd have to agree. the most fun I have shooting is when I take my shotgun out. I love my rifle for some nice precision shooting, but the shotgun is so.... versatile.

[Cortexian]

oh i got a bipod for Christmas, nothing fancy, but yeah.

[rossmum]

If I were to pick up an AK in the near future, probably snag one from these guys
http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/product.php?productid=1&cat=21&page=1
L (http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/product.php?productid=1&cat=21&page=1)ittle pricey compared to most AK's but I hear good things. Plus the receivers are Russian made, both milled and stamped. The rest I think is manufactured in the US
The non-US parts are all Izhmash and that is good. I had heard Arsenal were good but I just heard the opposite from a friend who would probably know, being a Russian American. Either way, Izhmash (Saiga) parts, the US-made components don't seem too shitty which is always a huge plus, not a bad piece. Too bad your country (like every other country) is ruled by retards in perpetuity so just getting a goddamn AK straight from Izhmash is a no-no. Once again, fuck 922(r), fuck whichever mouthbreathing, ignorant retards supported it, and fuck the US manufacturers who pushed it. Also generally fuck the US government for violating international law just to keep S&W happy.

One of the guns I would most like to own is an AK-74M, probably with either a PK-AS or 1P29 mounted for optics. They are innately reliable weapons and far, far better than many Americans (especially the more hyper-nationalistic AR or bust retards) give them credit for. Also if you can afford the giggle switch and your state allows it, there's the added bonus of them essentially not climbing at all when fired on full auto. Very, very, very good rifles. If I could own only one rifle, it would be an AK-74M. If it weren't for the NATO standardisation debacle though I'd have said EM-2.

For those not knowing, I scrapped the "import Mosin from Canada" idea because holy fuck Customs can eat a fat, juicy dick. Found a place in Sydney which had an ex-sniper for 575, about the same Mil-Arm was doing if you wanted their snipers less the scope, so that was my combined 22nd birthday/Christmas present from my parents. Another 3-400 will net me an original PU scope and mount and then it's just a matter of getting the actual rail the mount sits within, the drilling to re-open the screw channels, and the work to replace the bolt handle (again). Whole thing will probably run me about 5-600 not including the rifle, which I didn't pay for, but by the end I will have a numbers-matching postwar rearsenal 1944 Izhevsk rifle with a mismatched but original scope, essentially what I planned to buy from Mil-Arm anyway but because I have to do the conversion myself it's going to run over their price by a few hundred. Sucks but not a lot I can do. I'll get one off them when I move back home, so then I can have two 91/30 snipers. Rifle is overall pretty fucking nice, no rust or anything I could see and surprisingly legible (and tidy!) markings for a post-'42 Mosin. Stock is a tad rough but given the choice I'd rather it be that than the action or barrel.

Also decided I will begin a vigilant watch for any pre-'43 ex-snipers with non-PU drillings. My current white whale is a side-mounted PEM, so I'm looking at either prewar or mid-late '42/early '43. They are one of the rarest variants going though so I have my work cut out for me, if I can find one I will be over the fucking moon though.

Will have my rifle in about a week and a half, two weeks max. Scope and mounts will be longer as I need to figure out exactly what I'm going to do first, at the moment looking at buying a conversion kit that has everything but the scope and mount are repro. Flog them on eBay and buy 1944 scope and mount. That is the plan, anyway.

25822583
Click for enbiggenment

Also I got to shoot a mate's new 12g O/U. First time skeet shooting, was fucking awesome fun. Did more Enfielding, cracked out the Winchester 70 again (fuck that is a goddamn sexy rifle, and a dream to handle and shoot), and went out hunting. Still hate killing things and watching a little rabbit which stupidly decided to cower behind a tree and wait instead of run turn basically inside out made me feel pretty fucking bad but what can you do, pests are pests and the foxes are out again. One less now since I tagged a little one on the fly at like 80m, pretty good shot considering I wobble like fuck standing. Sucks for you lil buddy, at least it was fast :ohdear:

e/ this is the fucking shit right here: http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/product.php?productid=17&cat=&bestseller=Y

[TVTyrant]

I'm a big fan of the Desert Tan look on a M style AK myself.

Also still 5.56 AK ftw.

Everything I have heard about Arsenal is positive.

[PenGuin1362]

Definitely find a good gun smith to mount your scope. Not sure if the wood was replaced on your stock but if not they'll have to cut out the wood too. The place that did mine was thorough enough to re-stain the parts of the stock that had to cut but I'd expect nothing less from any respectable gun smith.

[TVTyrant]

Sex in the air:

http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/images/D/slr106frds_1.jpg

[Cortexian]

Dark Earth would look better than tan IMO.

[TVTyrant]

I like the tan because it makes it look kind of FPSy. The dark earth would probably be more attractive IRL, but I dislike the appearance of the Tapco stuff.

[rossmum]

Dark earth is overrated. Unless you actually expect that gun to be in the desert often it is fucking pointless wankery, any dull, non-reflective finish will do without the Modern Warfare tax (kind of like the Hitler and SS taxes for German milsurp). It's not even real flat dark earth, this is (http://www.etamiya.com/shop/images/tamiya_toolspaints/86522.jpg).

So many people these days buy into that shit, I don't know why. You need a good, reliable rifle which you know well. It doesn't matter worth a damn what colour it is, what brand of fucking rail adaptors you use, or any of that other extravagant bullshit. Don't mount rails unless you intend on using them. Don't mount redundant rails, use any existing real estate first. Don't make your gun tan unless you use it exclusively in brown places, don't make it green unless you use it in green places. Either leave it alone, go for flat grey or black, or use a good camo pattern that will work in a variety of environments. At any rate unless you're a sniper you really have no major cause to be camouflaging your personal weapon anyway, it's a silly fad which is encouraged by big rich companies the exact same way we western consumers are fooled into thinking we need all the other unnecessary crap we buy.

Of course, if you realise that it's functionally pointless but just want your range queen to look ~*TaCtIcAl*~, go for your life.

[TVTyrant]

Dark earth is overrated. Unless you actually expect that gun to be in the desert often it is fucking pointless wankery, any dull, non-reflective finish will do without the Modern Warfare tax (kind of like the Hitler and SS taxes for German milsurp). It's not even real flat dark earth, this is (http://www.etamiya.com/shop/images/tamiya_toolspaints/86522.jpg).

So many people these days buy into that shit, I don't know why. You need a good, reliable rifle which you know well. It doesn't matter worth a damn what colour it is, what brand of fucking rail adaptors you use, or any of that other extravagant bullshit. Don't mount rails unless you intend on using them. Don't mount redundant rails, use any existing real estate first. Don't make your gun tan unless you use it exclusively in brown places, don't make it green unless you use it in green places. Either leave it alone, go for flat grey or black, or use a good camo pattern that will work in a variety of environments. At any rate unless you're a sniper you really have no major cause to be camouflaging your personal weapon anyway, it's a silly fad which is encouraged by big rich companies the exact same way we western consumers are fooled into thinking we need all the other unnecessary crap we buy.

Of course, if you realise that it's functionally pointless but just want your range queen to look ~*TaCtIcAl*~, go for your life.
I like the tan because it looks cool. Unlike the AR-15, which you can paint up entirely and make it camouflaged, thats the whole point of it on an AK. Not enough is really covered in stock/changeable material to really make a difference. It just looks cool.

[rossmum]

Wanna bet?

[PenGuin1362]

Here's the thing with civilian guns Ross. Normally, I'd agree with you but when it comes to owning a gun in the civilian world, ya do stuff simply because it looks cool. These guns are bought with zero intention of combat, they just look cool. If you're pimping out your deployment rifle, that's a different story. If you like the look of dark earth or tan on your rifle (personally I hate tan) and you live in Seattle, it's still the color you like. The most pointless thing I have a on my rifle is the Magpul ranger plates. As a civilian COMPLETELY useless. Doesn't change the fact they were like $5 and look pretty badass. To each his own

[rossmum]

Yeah, still seems silly to me though. It's like kids trying to rebel by all looking the same. Fuck FDE, why not get a nice shade of dark blue? Or red? Or pink and orange polka dots? Brown is a boring shitty colour and beige/tan are to brown as brown is to colour.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah, still seems silly to me though. It's like kids trying to rebel by all looking the same. Fuck FDE, why not get a nice shade of dark blue? Or red? Or pink and orange polka dots? Brown is a boring shitty colour and beige/tan are to brown as brown is to colour.
Its what's for sale lol.

[Cortexian]

FDE on the SCAR is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about FDE, it's one of the better looking FDE's I've seen on guns.

And having greens/tans/browns on your rifle makes it much less viable to the human eye. Black is extremely unnatural on a rifle and it's the first thing I always see when I'm out hunting/airsofting when the rest of the person is camo'd up. Even solid color green/tan/brown is better than black in literally any environment.

[rossmum]

Yes but the number of times infantry are in any position to ID enemy by their weapon versus "HEY WE ARE BEING LIT UP FROM OVER THERE" is very low. They're either silhouettes on the horizon or so close it doesn''t matter anyway. If you can see their weapons, you can most likely see them.

Again, snipers are a special exception.

[TVTyrant]

I think OD is about as normal of a color as you will find.

Wood is the best though.

[Warsaw]

^ That

Real guns are made from wood. SCAR is a fake gun. AK-74M is a fake gun. AR is a fake gun. AUG is most definitely a fake gun. Take your 5.56/5.45 and eat it.

SVT, FAL, AK-47, G98, Enfield, M1, or bust.

[PenGuin1362]

I don't discriminate, I love all guns :) and by all I mean most. There are some pretty fuck ugly atrocities out there.

[TVTyrant]

^ That

Real guns are made from wood. SCAR is a fake gun. AK-74M is a fake gun. AR is a fake gun. AUG is most definitely a fake gun. Take your 5.56/5.45 and eat it.

SVT, FAL, AK-47, G98, Enfield, M1, or bust.
http://www.jmtpublishing.com/articles/2011/AR_many_minis_files/image002.jpg

:ohboy:

[Cortexian]

Meh, I hate wood, it's too heavy and catches on fire.

[TVTyrant]

But, but its sooooooo pretty...

[PenGuin1362]

bahaha that's great. My issue with wood is what freelancer pointed out, it tends to be too heavy. Which isn't always a bad thing. But I don't think it looks that good on modern assault rifles. It varies. Although even though they offer the M1A is furniture other than wood, I would never buy an M1A in anything besides wood or in EBR/EMR setup. Polar opposites I know, but it still looks awesome.

[TVTyrant]

I would buy a SOCOM 16 M1A in regular synth.

Just saiyan

[PenGuin1362]

Well, if you're goin SOCOM then that would just look weird in wood

[Cortexian]

Yeah the SOCOM's have rails and stuff on them, wood would look weird.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah the SOCOM's have rails and stuff on them, wood would look weird.
Or it could look extra special super awesome!

But probably not.

[Warsaw]

Meh, I hate wood, it's too heavy and catches on fire.

I hate plastic. It feels like shit and melts...at a lower temperature than the wood catches fire, mind you.

Also, yeah, wood would look awful on modern assault rifles. You'd have to design the gun around the wood rather than try a retrofit. That said, modern assault rifles are pansy weapons shooting tiny bullets which tend to be shit outside of 300 yards and lack punch even at that range. Since we're firing semi almost all the time, what use is the neutered rifle cartridge? The guns that NEED to be automatic are so heavy that the recoil difference becomes nil. I mean, the only benefit is being able to carry more because the cartridge is smaller. That's fine, but you wouldn't need to carry more (for the riflemen) when the first shot doesn't get blown off-course or stopped by thin cover.

Finally, EBR *looks* flimsy as fuck. The proportions make it one butt-ugly platform. Functional, sure, but still an eye-sore.

:|

[PenGuin1362]

I love the look of the EBR personally. And having fired one I can say it's pretty sturdy. As far as the rounds go the 5.56 is still accurate as balls well into 500 yards. But you're right, definitely lacks stopping power that a 7.62 NATO round wouldn't.

[TVTyrant]

I love the look of the EBR personally. And having fired one I can say it's pretty sturdy. As far as the rounds go the 5.56 is still accurate as balls well into 500 yards. But you're right, definitely lacks stopping power that a 7.62 NATO round wouldn't.
The thing about the 5.56 is ammunition type. The ammo they use now is awful. The 60s/70s 55 grainers was excellent against people at short range. The 62 grain is garbage.

[Warsaw]

@Penguin: I like the other M14 system...can't remember what it's called. The one with the shock absorber in the stock? More functional AND much prettier.

If we have to go mid-sized, I'm a fan of .280. The Brits did a bang-up job of making THE perfect mid-powered round. But no, USA had to have it's 7.62 NATO.

[TVTyrant]

@Penguin: I like the other M14 system...can't remember what it's called. The one with the shock absorber in the stock? More functional AND much prettier.

If we have to go mid-sized, I'm a fan of .280. The Brits did a bang-up job of making THE perfect mid-powered round. But no, USA had to have it's 7.62 NATO.
280 is blech. 6.8 SPC ftw.

[PenGuin1362]

6.8 is a pretty nice round. I don't really like the standard stock on the EMR or EBR, but Sage does make EBR kits with mil spec buffer tubes and you can put some really nice stocks onto it. I think I know what you're referring to but can't remember it off the top of my head

[Warsaw]

280 is blech. 6.8 SPC ftw.

.280 never saw service, I think you might be thinking of a different .280. I'm talking about the .280 British.

That said, 6.5 Grendel had the better flight characteristics between it and 6.8 SPC.

[Cortexian]

@Penguin: I like the other M14 system...can't remember what it's called. The one with the shock absorber in the stock? More functional AND much prettier.
The Troy Industries MCS IIRC.
http://www.desertwarriorproducts.com/images/middlegun-detail.gif

I want one.

[TVTyrant]

.280 never saw service, I think you might be thinking of a different .280. I'm talking about the .280 British.

That said, 6.5 Grendel had the better flight characteristics between it and 6.8 SPC.
I know which .280 you're talking about senior. And it was meh imo. It has a standard rim width which disgusts me at that case length because it limits magazine capacity. When you look at pictures of the StG and is has that long magazine that is why. The .470 rim width is simply too large for high cap magazines to be comfortable. A better design would be to take a non-standard rim width (.473 is the old Mauser width and is considered "standard") and have a slightly longer case with a shorter bullet. You would give up some Ballistic Coefficient and powder capacity but in return you would get a significant improvement in ergonomics.

As for the 6.5 Grendel, it is based on the PPC cartridges which are based on the AK-47 round. It has a weird rim size and I will not be a part of it. On the side of supporting the 6.8, It fits an AR better and doesn't look like it was made as a match cartridge instead of a fighting/utility cartridge.

[PenGuin1362]

The Troy Industries MCS IIRC.

I want one.
I don't mind them, bu the m14 is already a fairly bulky platform, and this one just adds even more to it by going over the receiver

[Warsaw]

I know which .280 you're talking about senior. And it was meh imo. It has a standard rim width which disgusts me at that case length because it limits magazine capacity. When you look at pictures of the StG and is has that long magazine that is why. The .470 rim width is simply too large for high cap magazines to be comfortable. A better design would be to take a non-standard rim width (.473 is the old Mauser width and is considered "standard") and have a slightly longer case with a shorter bullet. You would give up some Ballistic Coefficient and powder capacity but in return you would get a significant improvement in ergonomics.

As for the 6.5 Grendel, it is based on the PPC cartridges which are based on the AK-47 round. It has a weird rim size and I will not be a part of it. On the side of supporting the 6.8, It fits an AR better and doesn't look like it was made as a match cartridge instead of a fighting/utility cartridge.

Yay for someone actually doing his homework. I mean that seriously.

6.5 Grendel is, actually, better because it's similar to an AK round. It can also fit into standard 5.56 magazines, meaning it's easy to adapt not only ARs to use it, but also AKs (AK-101 anybody?). In that regard, the 6.8 loses its advantage. Really, 6.8 has better impact than 6.5, but 6.5 retains a better flight pattern for a marginal sacrifice in energy retention. That (combined with monies) is why the US Military still hasn't decided. The two are so comparable that it's painful.

As for .280, the rim is hardly larger than the standard width. The 7.92 Kurz resulted in long magazines because it was tapered rather sharply. Same reason the AK magazines are so huge. .280 is not tapered, and its magazines wouldn't look much different than current STANAG magazines, only slightly larger because the whole cartridge is bigger in every way.

@Freelancer: Yeah, that. Much better looking than EBR.

[TVTyrant]

No, but it has the SAME width as the Kurz, and the problem is with the math imo. When you have a case of .378 base width (I mean rim), 10 of these cartridges become 3.78 inches and 30 are about 12 inches. Now, we use staggered double stack magazines so let's say its a 7 inch magazine. Not too bad. But when you have 30 .473 width cartridges you have almost fifteen inches of magazine size, probably a 10 inch mag, and the weight of the shells and weapon when loaded goes up considerably. You have to reduce to a 20 round mag to be useful, and while that's not that big of a deal why would you carry 20 when you could carry 30? The whole point of an automatic weapon is to have the ability to suppress a target, and 20 is not enough imo.

Here is a link to a .473 diameter magazine comparison. Unfortunately the afterimage is saved to the internet indefinitely, but the picture itself is not:

http://images.google.com/imgres?q=30+round+M1A+magazine&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=572&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=FGushRFqOVmR3M:&imgrefurl=http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/m14-m1a-talk/66574-m1a-30-round-magazines.html&docid=jsY-_AGNIk6S-M&imgurl=http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt349/Knocky/Knocky%202010/IMG_2138.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=s1sKT8GuH-WYiQK85fSLCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=174&vpy=142&dur=878&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=176&ty=99&sig=106313445498957758255&page=1&tbnh=119&tbnw=166&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

As far as the 6.8 thing, it has a .422 base which is the same as the 30-30 (not rim width, base width). That's about ideal imo because its not teeny like the 5.56 but its not fat as fuck like the .280. At least its not a WSM lol.

Also: Troy industries ftw. Too bad thats like 2000 bucks or something WITHOUT the M1A.

[Cortexian]

I don't mind them, bu the m14 is already a fairly bulky platform, and this one just adds even more to it by going over the receiver
However the lower portion is actually slightly less bulky than the original, it doesn't look like it but I've shot all three versions now (MCS, EBR, and regular). The MCS is the most comfortable to carry and manipulate out of all three, and it's definitely less bulky than the EBR.

It's also useful since it makes your DMR look more like a regular Rifleman, so he's less of a high priority target.

[Warsaw]

No, but it has the SAME width as the Kurz, and the problem is with the math imo. When you have a case of .378 base width (I mean rim), 10 of these cartridges become 3.78 inches and 30 are about 12 inches. Now, we use staggered double stack magazines so let's say its a 7 inch magazine. Not too bad. But when you have 30 .473 width cartridges you have almost fifteen inches of magazine size, probably a 10 inch mag, and the weight of the shells and weapon when loaded goes up considerably. You have to reduce to a 20 round mag to be useful, and while that's not that big of a deal why would you carry 20 when you could carry 30? The whole point of an automatic weapon is to have the ability to suppress a target, and 20 is not enough imo.

Here is a link to a .473 diameter magazine comparison. Unfortunately the afterimage is saved to the internet indefinitely, but the picture itself is not:

http://images.google.com/imgres?q=30+round+M1A+magazine&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=572&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=FGushRFqOVmR3M:&imgrefurl=http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/m14-m1a-talk/66574-m1a-30-round-magazines.html&docid=jsY-_AGNIk6S-M&imgurl=http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt349/Knocky/Knocky 2010/IMG_2138.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=s1sKT8GuH-WYiQK85fSLCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=174&vpy=142&dur=878&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=176&ty=99&sig=106313445498957758255&page=1&tbnh=119&tbnw=166&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

As far as the 6.8 thing, it has a .422 base which is the same as the 30-30 (not rim width, base width). That's about ideal imo because its not teeny like the 5.56 but its not fat as fuck like the .280. At least its not a WSM lol.

Also: Troy industries ftw. Too bad thats like 2000 bucks or something WITHOUT the M1A.

But doctrine has everybody firing semi-automatic anyways, so having 30 rounds instead of 20 is hardly an advantage. The only time it's an advantage is when navigating corridors in houses, at which point, if you are doing it a lot, you should honestly be using something shorter than your standard-issue M16.

The real issue is that 5.56 has no punch, and all these suggestions we are throwing around do. You have to make a trade somewhere, and ten rounds in exchange for the ability to blast through cover is, to me, worth it. I wouldn't worry about .280, though, because it's not going to come back. It was just a very good first generation mid-powered cartridge. I'd say go for 6.5 Grendel because it has more advantages than 6.8 SPC does for the same number of shortcomings. And no, weird rim-size not being to your fancy is not a legitimate argument, sorry. :p

[Cortexian]

I still think everyone should just be issued some ridiculous rounds like .338-378! :ugh:

[TVTyrant]

But doctrine has everybody firing semi-automatic anyways, so having 30 rounds instead of 20 is hardly an advantage. The only time it's an advantage is when navigating corridors in houses, at which point, if you are doing it a lot, you should honestly be using something shorter than your standard-issue M16.

The real issue is that 5.56 has no punch, and all these suggestions we are throwing around do. You have to make a trade somewhere, and ten rounds in exchange for the ability to blast through cover is, to me, worth it. I wouldn't worry about .280, though, because it's not going to come back. It was just a very good first generation mid-powered cartridge. I'd say go for 6.5 Grendel because it has more advantages than 6.8 SPC does for the same number of shortcomings. And no, weird rim-size not being to your fancy is not a legitimate argument, sorry. :p
Well if I were manufacturing rifles and ammo it might.

Also my opinion when not counting rim size etc. is that the 6.5 is a better round for a marksman than for a fighting man. Up close and personal the 6.8 delivers more energy from a wider diameter projectile. Using match tip (aka hollow point) ammo that has become the fancy for use against "insurgents", it hits harder at close range. While I agree that at 600 yards+ the Grendel is awesome, I don't see it as being as useful up close. My other concern is that, while the bolt face of the ar-15 will take the Grendel, that the mags for it would be weird because its a Xx39 case blown out. There are no magazines devised specifically for its case shape. The SPC has very similar angles to that of the 5.56 which gives it an advantage in magazine work

Also I just don't like the Grendel for some reason, so ^ is probably all just random shit that means nothing. It just doesn't excite me in any way.

Also .378 Weatherby should be the Humvee machine gun cartridge lol.

[Warsaw]

You can use Grendel in STANAG magazines though. You can fit ~25 in 30 round magazine.

The US soldiers typically do their shooting from as far away as they can, which makes 6.5 favourable. I agree that 6.8 transfers more energy to the target, but it's not such a huge difference that it's worth sacrificing long range performance over. We're talking a difference of 0.3mm here, not quite the same thing as 7.62 vs. 5.56. You'd have to custom load a 6.8mm SPC to get the same distance performance.

I think we need to make an SMG firing .50 Action Express...:haw:

[TVTyrant]

Mostly the 50 AE SMG.

Also how about the 260 Remington for everything except what the 50 AE SMG does?

[Cortexian]

Pfft, every weapon in NATO should just be swapped out to the 50 AE SMG, vehicle and aircraft mounted versions can just have extended barrels. Snipers can also have extended barrels.

Intercompatibility ftw.

[TVTyrant]

Fire one cartridge for every weapon lol.

What is this WW2?

[Warsaw]

WWII had like, five cartridges for four weapons.

M3 could be found in 9mm and .45.

M1 Carbine was in .30 Carbine.

M1 Garand was in .30-06

M2HB was in .50 BMG.

7.62 NATO and 5.56 were supposed to make it such that all infantry weapons fired the same thing. That means MG, Marksman, and Rifleman all use the same cartridge. In practice, it hasn't worked out so far. We have marksmen using anything from 5.56mm , to .338, to .50 BMG. Machine guns are found in both 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO, as well as .50 BMG on mounted guns. Riflemen mostly use 5.56, but there are some with more exotic cartridges like 6.8mm SPC and some even using 4.6mm in the MP7.

Yeah. Crazy logistics.

.50 AE would be awesome, just use longer bullets for rifles. :v:

[TVTyrant]

30-06 was used in the M1 Rifle (most common infantry rifle), M1919 machine gun (most common light machinegun), BAR (most common auto rifle), M1903 Springfield (sniper rifle), M1917 Enfield (was issued to artillery men).

Pretty damn good if you ask me.

[Cortexian]

Don't forget whatever round the P90 fires, I forget what it is since it's basically proprietary. IIRC many aircrews, armored crew, and security forces use the P90 in different NATO forces.

Also keep in mind that they were trying to standardize magazines as well as cartridges. That way the guy behind you can grab a mag or two off pouches you've got on your back if they run out. This also hasn't worked out well since 7.62 magazines vary a lot, STANAG is like the only decent standard. P90's, MP7's, and other SMG's all have proprietary magazines...

IMO Magpul should get their PDW-R platform on the market. NATO should adopt it as the standard issue SMG since it uses existing STANAG magazines and 5.56 cartridges. Then they should replace 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rifles with something less terrible.

[TVTyrant]

5.56 PDW is awful unless equipped with either a heavier, lead cored projectile or a lighter "match tip" style projectile. It does not transfer energy at all with the 14.5 inch at close range. The powder burns do more damage than the bullet does.

[PenGuin1362]

I don't think we'll see a cartridge change any time soon unfortunately :( I love the PDW-R and the fact that it can carry a standard ar-15 magazine, but yeah I don't think 5.56 is the best choice for a PDW

[Cortexian]

The powder burns do more damage than the bullet does.
Unlikely.

[TVTyrant]

Unlikely.
/sarcasm and/or hyperbole.

[Warsaw]

30-06 was used in the M1 Rifle (most common infantry rifle), M1919 machine gun (most common light machinegun), BAR (most common auto rifle), M1903 Springfield (sniper rifle), M1917 Enfield (was issued to artillery men).

Pretty damn good if you ask me.

True, but the guns I listed were also extremely common, and all standard issue. In hindsight, we haven't really changed much from WWII.


Also, Freelancer, don't you dare call the PDR an SMG. SMGs fire pistol rounds. This is akin to a really short carbine, not an SMG, since it is firing rifle rounds. If you call the PDR an SMG, you are also calling the AKS-74U and the SG-553 an SMG.

[Cortexian]

Their primary purpose is pretty much the same. They would be used in the same scenarios.

[Warsaw]

Doesn't matter. This is a technical definition. The PDR can also be effectively used outside of 200 yards, an SMG cannot be used effectively outside of 100.

An SMG is any gun firing pistol-caliber rounds in some full-automatic fashion (burst or all the way).

[TVTyrant]

PDR sucks. Bring back the 45 ACP SMGs of old!

[Warsaw]

No, no. Bring us the .50AE SMGs of not-yet-happened.

[Cortexian]

Issue Vector's in .45 ACP to everyone gogogogogo.

[Warsaw]

No. Is ugly.

[PenGuin1362]

I like the vector. Fuck it, AA-12's with explosive rounds FOR EVERYONE

[TVTyrant]

AA 12s with Dragonbreath rounds :ohboy:

[Cortexian]

u crazy!

[Spartan094]

Imagine dual-mounted AA-12's with those loaded into 32 round drum-mags.

[Cortexian]

If it's mounted why use magazines at all? We'll just feed through a belt system right into the magazine well from an ammo box.

:)

[Warsaw]

Don't think the AA-12 has a belt-feed system though.

[TVTyrant]

Don't think the AA-12 has a belt-feed system though.
One can be implemented. It just requires some modification.

[Warsaw]

Too much work. I'd rather just mount an M134a and be done.

[TVTyrant]

Yeah well obviously you never got that engineering degree.

[Warsaw]

I'm still in school and I'm a double major. It's going to take awhile. That said, you obviously don't know what half the point of engineering is. Why would I waste time, money, and resources retrofitting a belt-feed onto an AA-12 when I could just mount an M134a (which already has belt feed) and clear the room faster with a single sweep in one direction? Or better yet, why don't I just toss in a few hand-grenades?

:v:

[TVTyrant]

I'm still in school and I'm a double major. It's going to take awhile. That said, you obviously don't know what half the point of engineering is. Why would I waste time, money, and resources retrofitting a belt-feed onto an AA-12 when I could just mount an M134a (which already has belt feed) and clear the room faster with a single sweep in one direction? Or better yet, why don't I just toss in a few hand-grenades?

:v:
Wait you are actually an engineering student? I just threw that in there for a funny.

Second whats your other major?

[Warsaw]

Game Design. Because game design is engineering (no, really, it is). I figure that anything I learn in systems engineering can also be applied to the game development pipeline.

[TVTyrant]

Im a history major

I hope that impresses you.

it shouldn't

[Warsaw]

I'm into history myself, I just prefer to study it as a hobby rather than as a profession. Same goes for politics.

[TVTyrant]

Also when are you going to donate Warsaw? We could use you in our conspiracy.

[Warsaw]

Perhaps after I build my computer (ordering pieces on the 25th). I need to know how much I'll have left over after blowing almost $1800 on a computer to last me for the next six years. Those two HD7970s aren't cheap.

Also, PayPal scares me.
._.

[TVTyrant]

Perhaps after I build my computer (ordering pieces on the 25th). I need to know how much I'll have left over after blowing almost $1800 on a computer to last me for the next six years. Those two HD7970s aren't cheap.

Also, PayPal scares me.
._.
You can use direct Debit.

I think you just have to throw in 20 bucks to get in.

[Warsaw]

Also need to cancel that damn Green Peace thing I signed up for. That's how close I am to going broke after this PC. Didn't mean to, but she had such a pretty face.

[TVTyrant]

Also need to cancel that damn Green Peace thing I signed up for. That's how close I am to going broke after this PC. Didn't mean to, but she had such a pretty face.
Rofl. Yeah thats how I felt after I bought my Batman comic collection...

And yes I am proud of it. Not ashamed at all <.< >.>

[Warsaw]

Hey. Batman rules. Without guns. He would disapprove of this thread.

[Cortexian]

The M134a doesn't fire Dragonsbreath shells, and as such has a much smaller e-peen intimidation factor.

[Warsaw]

Don't need intimidation when they are all dead before you can even finish saying the word. Dragon's Breath is a neat toy good mostly for lighting camp fires.

Also, no. The Vietnamese were scared absolutely shitless of the M134 Minigun. Being human, I think it's safe to say that just about anybody would be positively yellow in the face of that firepower.

Sorry.

[Cortexian]

True, but dual-linked AA-12's firing dragonsbreath would be just as effective as napalm. If I remember correctly, that was also pretty darn effective in 'nam.

[TVTyrant]

True, but dual-linked AA-12's firing dragonsbreath would be just as effective as napalm. If I remember correctly, that was also pretty darn effective in 'nam.
Along with being a horrible, horrible way to die :iamafag:

[Warsaw]

Only if that room is tiny. I'll take the relatively long range of 7.62 NATO over 12G. Unseen death.

[PenGuin1362]

resource efficient or not, come on how fucking epic would dual belt dragons breath AA-12's be. Also what school do you go to warsaw?

[Warsaw]

I guess it's just not to my taste. I get a silent pleasure at efficient anything.



Also, GMU.

[rossmum]

280 is blech. 6.8 SPC ftw.
.280 brit was ballistically superior and also around in the late 1940s, but america is backwards so it got canned because WE GOTS TA HAVE ARE FULL-SIZE CARTRIDGES THAT WAS OBSO-LEET IN NANTEEN FOTAY FREE

additionally a 20rd mag that is reliable and holds a good round like .280 is no real disadvantage imo. remember that infantry rifles are, especially in western doctrine, meant to be used for aimed fire in semiautomatic or, at most, short bursts. the auto is just there as a panic switch, even in room clearing it doesn't get a whole lot of use. with that said, burst fire is literally the goddamn dumbest thing on the face of the earth in every case except one, being the an-94. either have full auto or have no capacity for automatic fire at all.

re: wood on modern rifles. looks great on an m16, looks great on an ak, can imagine it looking pretty swell on the l85. the modern modern stuff, your acrs and masadas and g36s and shit, yeah it would probably look pretty bad. also wood really isn't that heavy, people have just been conditioned into whinging about weight if their rifle is a hair over the weight of an m16. stupid habit. come back and complain about weight after humping a machine gun across shit terrain, not after carrying a wood-stocked hunting or milsurp rifle slung for a few hundred metres over decent going.

ebr looks gross, like a commercialised, m14 version of what bubba would do to his sks innawoods

[Warsaw]

And that better be a water-cooled machine gun. :eng101: